Guy Landau Posted February 16, 2005 Share Posted February 16, 2005 Haven't you scared them away already? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greg928gts Posted February 16, 2005 Share Posted February 16, 2005 I wish I could try AK4's on my Khorns before buying them. Greg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ben. Posted February 16, 2005 Share Posted February 16, 2005 ---------------- On 2/16/2005 8:48:20 AM scotbuck wrote: 1957 Gibson Les Paul Jr. through a 1949 Fender Deluxe, 1956 Fender Tremolux, or Victoria 35115 / 1964 Gibson EB-2 through a 1970s Ampeg B-25B and JBL / Lowden F32 acoustic ---------------- Now that's what I'm talkin bout! Dunno about the EB, but the rest sure makes up for that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dylanl Posted February 16, 2005 Author Share Posted February 16, 2005 Q Man I think I can get my hands on a set of these horns and drivers. What would the cost of the crossovers be if I built them myself. This is not something I am going to do now but down the line. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Q-Man Posted February 17, 2005 Share Posted February 17, 2005 Parts alone were around $450.00 for the networks. I'll look them up later and let you know the amount. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Robinson Posted February 17, 2005 Share Posted February 17, 2005 ---------------- On 2/16/2005 8:56:34 AM maxg wrote: Oh - and dont be so sure that extra 5% doesn't exist - just be sure that if it does it will cost more than the 95% that preceded it. ---------------- Sounds like Max's equivalent of Moore's Law (of Intel fame). Shall we coin it officially? Max's Law: "The last 5% of sonic improvement will always cost more than the 95% that preceeded it." Accurate and simple to understand Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxg Posted February 17, 2005 Share Posted February 17, 2005 Thanks Chris! Just a thought on the bass bins of Khorns - and I have no idea if this is workable but I just got the idea from a pair of Montana speakers. The montana's have a bass driver at the bottom, then mid range, tweeter another mid range and then another bass driver. Bass drivers top and bottom.... Suppose you took a Khorn and the bass bin from a 2nd Khorn and mounted it upside down on top of the complete unit - you would have to seal off the top of this new speaker (as the top is the bottom of the 2nd bass bin. It would be very high - but it wouldnt take any more floor space. Course it might be even better to double on the mid range at well - but that would require some more woodwork.... I wonder how it would sound with a pair of these extended Khorns in either corner of a room. Thoughts? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted February 17, 2005 Share Posted February 17, 2005 "The last 5% of sonic improvement will always cost more than the 95% that preceeded it." Looks like I found my qoute of the month. Man, ain't it the truth. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sunnysal Posted February 17, 2005 Share Posted February 17, 2005 tom, "the cowboy song"? the "live and dangerous" version or the studio recording? I put on the live album the other day and was taken WAY back to my high school days...regards, tony Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxg Posted February 17, 2005 Share Posted February 17, 2005 Dean - thank you for the reference in your tag line, made me laugh - but you dont have to officially recognise my input - once it is in the public domain it is free. In 2600 and something posts I am bound to say something clever - if only once! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Robinson Posted February 17, 2005 Share Posted February 17, 2005 Max, I think Dale Walker had some configuration like that. It looked like the Tower of Babel, driven by bodaciously luminous amplifiers in an equally impressive stack. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted February 17, 2005 Share Posted February 17, 2005 What's sounds "better" is really subjective. It's relavtive too. I have this modest sized listening room, and no, I may not have the "best" drivers and horns - but compared to other things I've owned and heard over time, well -- I've never heard anything "better". The Atlas compression driver may not weigh 32 lbs., but it weighs a hell of lot more than midrange drivers commonly used in 99% of speakers available today. I'm using 30wpc, and I can reach concert levels in my room. The sound is clean, wide open and relaxed -- without a hint of strain. It never makes me cringe, want to clamp my jaws, or make me feel like I need to choose between turning it down or ducking for cover. If one considers some of my past comments regarding the sound of Heritage, and the kind of music I listen to -- well, think about it. Q-man said the K-400/401 sounds like a "dirty sock" is stuffed in the horn compared to some other things. I was offended, until I realized that the description is the complete antithesis of what I am hearing -- so I just blew it off. My first truly positive experience with Klipschorns was in Paul Parrot's barn sized living room being driven with 20wpc Pilot tube amps and ALKs. It wasn't 10 minutes into the experience that I knew I was buying Klipschorns. If there would have been anything in that sound even remotely resembling a "dirty sock" sound, you can bet I wouldn't have incurred $6000 worth of additional debt to experience it. The mind job was hearing that system driven by Craig's modified Dynaco MK-III's. It was the first time in my life I had ever been emotionally moved by the sound. So, I'll just say it: With these horns -- high powered solid state sounds awful. The sound is two dimensional and grainy. There's simply no layering to the music whatsoever, and there's this edge and film in the sound that makes me feel like I need to "fix" something. Naturally, half of everyone reading this will think I'm FOS. Bob Crites ended up with a set of modified K-400's with the Community M-200 drivers. The horn is cut down to accept 2" drivers, and effectively makes the K-400 a 300Hz horn. Bob also has some 511B's that he's played with. He uses fast switching to make comparisons. He now uses the 511B's to drop empty Pepsi cans into, and the modded K-400's are laying in his work area somewhere. I have a lot of respect for Bob, not so much because of his hard line reliance on measurements -- but more because of his careful listening tests. He has more stuff over there than he talks about, or that anyone here is aware of. I love to take stabs at him, mostly because he takes it so well, but I've learned to take what he says seriously. Al likes the Altec horns. So does Tom B and some others. Some like Warren and Q-man prefer clarity and transients that kick them out of their chair. Some like things toned down a little, looking instead for some abstract musical quality. Al prefers networks with sharp slopes, and so do I. Others like Bruce Edgar, Bob Crites, and many here on the forum like 1st order networks. DJK likes 3rd order networks. Many prefer a mix like found in the AA or ALK. I don't think anyone here should be sitting around waiting for consensus. My opinion is that Heritage speakers sound best with tube gear, with network choice determined by driver compliment and/or a person's listening tastes and habits. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3dzapper Posted February 17, 2005 Share Posted February 17, 2005 Dean, Don't your AK-4s take the squaker x-over down to around 350Hz? Rick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3dzapper Posted February 17, 2005 Share Posted February 17, 2005 Dean, Don't your AK-4s take the squaker x-over down to around 350Hz? I have just about arrived at Nervana with my Klipschorns and Heresys with my recent changes. Rick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D-MAN Posted February 17, 2005 Share Posted February 17, 2005 Rick, what's NIRVANNA like? I've been trying to get there all these years, but ain't got there yet! DM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dylanl Posted February 17, 2005 Author Share Posted February 17, 2005 Well It looks almost final. RF7s sold and Altec Model 19s on the way. By the way, I liked the "Dirty sock" reference and did not find it offensive. In Q-mans mind that comment is probably right on the money. What I do know is that In the end I will be able to do a true A vs. B comparison. Having both speakers in my environment will be the best test. Q? - How can anyone comment on something they have never heard or listened to? I posted to hear from those on this forum who have been there and done that with the equipment in question. Anyway, I want to thank those who responded. Just 1 final thought,: Just because you like something and paid through the nose for it does not make it the best. Keeping an open mind is how the true audiophile grows. I agree that the law of diminishing returns does come into play but at different times for each individual. I am just not there yet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted February 17, 2005 Share Posted February 17, 2005 No, it goes up to 450Hz -- but there is EQ now, and a trap I think. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Q-Man Posted February 17, 2005 Share Posted February 17, 2005 Deans comment is exactly the reason why I don't talk about my stuff anymore. It isn't right, and I don't like putting down the mighty Klipschorn. I've admired this speaker since I was 12 years old, and the man behind it since I was 21. This Forum has given us all many ideas, I just took them farther then the rest of you. I never would have believed that any speaker could best the Klipschorn without hearing and experiencing it myself, so I know how you feel. Thanks to the repeat and rewind feature on some CD players and a receiver with a remote control with an A/B switch to switch back and forth between speakers I could A/B sounds quickly. I got rather good at operating a remote control in each hand at the same time to repeat something over and over again and switch back and forth between speakers. A lot of sounds that I kept repeating lasted for only a fraction of a second. For example, the sound of a drum stick hitting the metal ring on a drum head, or striking a cow bell. I would sit there and listen to these sounds over and over for sometimes up to a half hour. I couldn,t hear a lot of these sounds out off the Klipschorn. I never would have know that they were there if I wasn't using some of these other drivers and horns. On the other hand a lot of the sounds that I could hear out of both speakers sounded muffled coming from the Klipschorn. Not only muffled, but harsh, where the Altec stuff is smooth and refined. This is why I used to say that the K-Horn sounded like it had a pillow stuffed into it. You can just hear things so much better out of some other drivers and horns. I shouldn't have said dirty socks this time. John Warren was even impressed with the sound of this driver and horn, he didn't thing that he was going to care for it. His network also helped a lot. He measured a nasty peak in the 311-90 horn and designed a notch filter in the network to correct this peak. When I got his networks and compared them to my networks and the ALK network it was another wow. You have to design a new network for every driver and horn changes. There is no network that will do it all. Last year I offered to bring my modified Klipschorn to Hope and I offered to bring it again this year for all to compare to a stock klipschorn. I don't think that the powers to be liked this idea, and I may have gone too far by suggesting it. After all a mod like this can add $3,000.00 to the cost of a pair and it's not a fair comparison. The Klipschorn is still a great speaker and great buy for the money. None better! I keep a stock pair in a room of my house to use as my reference speakers. I agree with what Dean has to say about the Klipschorn. I disagree with him about power amps. I think you can use some solid state high powrered power amps with Klipschorns. I find that some of the solid state McIntosh power amps work well with Klipschorns and do wonders for improving the sound of the bass horn. I don't have to worry about blowing a tweeter and mid. driver with the JBL tweeter and 290. They can handle a lot more power then the stock drivers. I now wonder how many K-33's that I might fry. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D-MAN Posted February 17, 2005 Share Posted February 17, 2005 Q-man, there is nothing wrong with taking things to the next level. And we all know that there were some compromises to the Khorn made by PWK himself. I even think that he'd approve of the "advanced performance" that his baby is capable of. I don't think that by modifying the Khorn, you are bad-mouthing it in any way. It is an extremely good platform to experiment with, as PWK noted himself. DM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted February 17, 2005 Share Posted February 17, 2005 The point of my post related to the subjective nature of the hobby. I probably blathered on more than I needed to. "How can anyone comment on something they have never heard or listened to?" True, but this also means we are on equal footing. Only a handful here have heard the AK-4 Klipschorn in an intimate setting. I've been playing with different networks and K-55-V's on my Klipschorns over the last week, and I can tell you the K-401 sounds very different with the AK-4 network. When people talk about the sound of Klipschorn -- there's what they're hearing, and what I'm hearing -- and they're not the same, not even close. "Just 1 final thought: Just because you like something and paid through the nose for it does not make it the best. Keeping an open mind is how the true audiophile grows." I didn't pay out the nose, I paid through the ***. That was the whole point of my post, or at least, I thought it was -- that "better" is subjective. I never once said that what I had sounded "best". What I said was that it sounds outstanding to me, and "better" than anything I've heard to date. I started with decent audio in 1976, and though I haven't had the level of exposure and experience that some here have -- I've heard some very good gear and speakers over the years. I agree that keeping an open mind is important, and also admit I have some trouble in that area. "You have to design a new network for every driver and horn changes. There is no network that will do it all." Absolutely agree 100%. I'm also not real thrilled with changing out just one of the drivers. I say if it's done -- the whole top should go. A Klipsch sponsored event is probably not the best place to showcase your work. OTOH, the Arkansas Gathering in Little Rock is the perfect place. Almost everyone there was involved with DIY one level or another. I'm bringing my AK-4 networks/K-55-X's, my modded Heresy's, and anything else I can bring without herniating myself. I'm sure you would find yourself among friends, and we would sure enjoy hearing what you've accomplished. I would be willing to fly down a day early to help Dee get the room ready -- that is -- if he's willing to accomodate this insanity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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