Speaker size and crossover settings

[bkcleve]

Hi everyone again. I finally have a system up and need some time saving help in the settings. I have RF-7's for the mains and the surrounds a RC-7 for the center and the RSW-15 for the sub. I have a Yamaha RX-V2400 and DVDs1500. Can anybody with a similar setup give me a starting point for the settings? It sounds good already but I want this thing to RRRock my world. I am fairly new to this kind of equipment. My other theater has a Kenwood cheapy receiver with very little settings to mess with. Anything you guys can give me some advice on would bre appreciated.

[colterphoto1]

I have the 2400 and Cornwalls. Had RC7 but just swapped in a KLF-C7, we're really quite similar although you have Reference and I've just got this old junk.

your speakers are LARGE. You can set the Yammie to output sub .1 signal to just sub, just LR or BOTH, I'd start with BOTH. Use 80HZ THX suggested xover point to start. Do the YPAO thing with the mic and see if you like it. READ THE MANUAL. rest READ IT AGAIN. Takes a little getting used to but the remote and menu system are really quite simple once you get the hang of it.

Note that the 2400 will remember your 'favorite' DSP mode for each input source. Mine knows to rock my world with 7 ch stereo on CD, stay pure with 2ch stereo on LP, and go to Dolby Digital when I switch to DVD. VERY COOL!

On the stereo side, bypass is straight, no echo, no eq, no digital hocus-pocus at all, 2 ch is YPAO or graphic eq, with sub out, 7 ch loads all speakers including the sub.

You also have manual bass and treble on the front panel, so if YPAO is a little 'bright', just turn treble down a bit and/or increase the bass. I'd run it that way for a while. If you don't like what it does, you can still save the distance/time alignment settings and just bypass it's eq in favor of your personal eq settings. Note that you get to eq each speaker separately. Would take a while to get it right by hand.

On GENERAL forum under 'visit to Colter's place' are photos and notes of my setup so you can see what I have to contend with . msg or email if you have specific questions.

Michael

[Darren]

This may sound insane, but I would set your speakers to "small" on your receiver. The cross-over setting noted above (80hz) is a good starting point, but if you have all your speakers set to "large" the full signal continues to all speakers. If you set your speakers to "small", you can bi-pass the sub's cross over setting (turn it all the way up) and not worry about getting muddled bass. The only adjustments to worry about on the sub then is phase and volume.

With RF-7's surrounds, you may find a cross-over of 60hz sounds better to you. Either way, I'd let the sub do all the work on the really low stuff - that's what it's designed for. A cross over of 60 or 80 hz still leaves plenty of low end for your RF-7's.

[MrMcGoo]

I have RF-7s and have always run them as small with a crossover of 80 Hz. The RSW-15 takes care of the lower bass frequencies. Bass is clearer this way, and the upper frequencies benefit as well.

Receivers are challenged for power when running RF-7s. The small setting takes a major part of the load off of the receiver and uses the 650 watt amp on the sub to help carry the load.

Crossovers below 80 Hz are possible on the RF-7s, but receivers lack the power (current) to use a 50 or 60 Hz crossover.

Bill

[toddvj]

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On 3/1/2005 11:19:50 PM colterphoto1 wrote:

your speakers are LARGE. You can set the Yammie to output sub .1 signal to just sub, just LR or BOTH, I'd start with BOTH. Use 80HZ THX suggested xover point to start.

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If you set the speakers to LARGE, the Xover won't mean anything.

I have mine set at Small, with the Crossover at 40. I run mine with a receiver, even if some elitists say that's impossible. I'm just running a measley Denon 4802. The sound is incredible.

[Hunt]

To further confuse you, I have my RF-7's set to large, and the receiver set to "LFE+mains" so the signal goes to both my Sub and RF-7's. I know that most people will cringe when they read that, but after trying almost every conceivable setting (large vs small, diff. x'overs) I just like the sound the best on the "large" setting. But then again, I am the one that is always saying "what?" when my wife asks me to take out the trash.

Experiment and see what sounds good to you. Good luck and have fun.

[Foxman]

Yet another set up.

I run large for my RF's and RC-7 and set my crossover to 40.

Sounds to me like since pretty much everyone is doing something differant you simply need to give each one a try. I suggest leaving one setup for a week or so before changing so you can really tell when you find something you like best.

Take notes of the ones you like and then if you have a couple differant setups that you liked you can go back and do an A-B comparison of them.

[Frzninvt]

Seems like a waste to run a speaker of the caliber of RF-7 on "small" but to each his own. The signal being fed from your receiver is 20Hz-20Khz for all channels, the only reason that I would run them on small is your speakers have woofers 8" in diameter or less. The other reason would be if your receiver did not have the "cojones" to get the full potential out of your speakers.

I run mine all "Large" and LFE + Mains as well why because they are!

40Hz is too low a crossover point for DVD soundtracks since they are designed with the 80Hz THX standard in mind so you are going to be missing alot of bass impact. The RSW-15's are only reproducing 1 octave since they are weak below 30Hz so at 40Hz with a 12db slope you are seeing 52Hz (52Hz-25Hz) downward out of the subs.

For music 40Hz is probably great though. I have tried 40 and 60 and still find that the 80Hz point seems to sound best for movie watching. I only kick the subs on for movies most of the time.

Everyone hears and perceives things differently so what works for one person might not for another, it is best to experiment and draw your own conclusions based on your system and surroundings.

[bkcleve]

Thanks for all of the help. You all are right. It is a personal thing. I am playing with it and it is great. I have one side note to add. I put the spikes on the RF-7's with the plastic feet and without the feet (spikes only) I have to say that the speakers became less bright and really didn't like the sound. Will probably try them again at some point. They are in a basement, (slab) on berber carpet. What are some of the real advantages to them? If there is an accoustic purpose what is it. Didn't play with the settings much with them on as I am just now getting efficient with this receiver.

[toddvj]

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On 3/2/2005 12:38:06 PM Frzninvt wrote:

Seems like a waste to run a speaker of the caliber of RF-7 on "small" but to each his own. The signal being fed from your receiver is 20Hz-20Khz for all channels, the only reason that I would run them on small is your speakers have woofers 8" in diameter or less. The other reason would be if your receiver did not have the "cojones" to get the full potential out of your speakers.

I run mine all "Large" and LFE + Mains as well why because they are!

40Hz is too low a crossover point for DVD soundtracks since they are designed with the 80Hz THX standard in mind so you are going to be missing alot of bass impact. The RSW-15's are only reproducing 1 octave since they are weak below 30Hz so at 40Hz with a 12db slope you are seeing 52Hz (52Hz-25Hz) downward out of the subs.

For music 40Hz is probably great though. I have tried 40 and 60 and still find that the 80Hz point seems to sound best for movie watching. I only kick the subs on for movies most of the time.

Everyone hears and perceives things differently so what works for one person might not for another, it is best to experiment and draw your own conclusions based on your system and surroundings.

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Okay, boys and girls. Seems a lot of us don't understand what a crossover is. You say that you run your speakers at Large, then in the next paragraph you say 40Hz is too low a crossover point??? At what frequency do you think you are crossing over if you set the speakers to large??? Answer=You aren't crossing over AT ALL! You are sending your mains the full spectrum and your sub the LFE. That's it.

Now, I know what you are really talking about is the little knob on your Subwoofer, but that is the Low Pass Filter, not really the crossover. For the record, I have mine set all the way up, so I get the full range of the LFE, plus anything encoded for the mains that is below 40Hz. If you set your Subwoofer's "Crossover" or Low Pass filter any lower, you are missing some of the LFE.

On a side note, I find it hilarious that people knock THX all the time, but when it comes to Crossover point, they all seem to think THX got that one thing right. For the record, THX would reccommend that you set your Receiver's Crossover to 80Hz (speakers set to small), and Low Pass Filter (the knob on the sub) disabled, or at least turned all the way up.

One More Time 'Large' = No Crossover

'Small' = Crossover

The knob on your sub = Low Pass Filter, Not Crossover.

So yes, part of it is what sounds best to you. But, an even larger part is knowing what the hell you are doing.

[Frzninvt]

"Okay, boys and girls. Seems a lot of us don't understand what a crossover is. You say that you run your speakers at Large, then in the next paragraph you say 40Hz is too low a crossover point???

For the subwoofer!!!!! I was not referring to the rest of the speakers.

At what frequency do you think you are crossing over if you set the speakers to large??? Answer=You aren't crossing over AT ALL! You are sending your mains the full spectrum and your sub the LFE. That's it.

Wow, there is a revelation!

Now, I know what you are really talking about is the little knob on your Subwoofer, but that is the Low Pass Filter, not really the crossover. For the record, I have mine set all the way up, so I get the full range of the LFE, plus anything encoded for the mains that is below 40Hz. If you set your Subwoofer's "Crossover" or Low Pass filter any lower, you are missing some of the LFE.

What do you think a filter is? It is a network designed to limit certain frequencies from reaching the speaker so how is that different from a crossover other than it not feeding HF to other speakers? My subs are set the same as yours, they are older and have no dedicated LFE input so I turn the "Low Pass Filter" to the highest setting and let the preamp's internal "Low Pass Filter" determine what the cutoff frequency will be.

On a side note, I find it hilarious that people knock THX all the time, but when it comes to Crossover point, they all seem to think THX got that one thing right. For the record, THX would reccommend that you set your Receiver's Crossover to 80Hz (speakers set to small), and Low Pass Filter (the knob on the sub) disabled, or at least turned all the way up.

One More Time 'Large' = No Crossover

'Small' = Crossover

The knob on your sub = Low Pass Filter, Not Crossover.

So yes, part of it is what sounds best to you. But, an even larger part is knowing what the hell you are doing."

Once again everyone's situation will be unique and experimentation with the settings is a must.

[jacksonbart]

I have found the best set up for me is, set all speakers to small, including the RF7s mains, set the LFE to LFE only, not LFE + mains. Then I set the cross over to the RSW15 at 60hz.

I have experimented a bit, seem the get the smoothest bass response in my room this way. Experiment and enjoy.

[Zen Traveler]

If you set the speakers to LARGE, the Xover won't mean anything.

I have mine set at Small, with the Crossover at 40. I run mine with a receiver, even if some elitists say that's impossible. I'm just running a measley Denon 4802. The sound is incredible.

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I also have a 4802 ®and I highly recommend using it with Klipsch. I Just purchased RB 75's to use as rear surrounds in an obscene set up in such a small room

I racked my brain trying to get around the Large/Small dilemma. I basically only buy 5.1 or better material. I had some RS -3's that I ran small, every thing else to large. They are no longer in the setup & I am now running everything to large.

I by-pass the Subs x-over and use the denons (set @60 for music and Thx for movies)"lowpass disabled,LFE Mode" on the sub connected through the Lfe connection. It sounds GREAT! If I am running everything "Large" exactly what frequencies are being output to the Subwoofer? I understand that it is the ".1," but is that only determined by the person who mixed the sound for the dvd? Is it the 80 Hz that is the Thx standard? Even on Dolby Surround mixes (no ".1") that I cross at 60 Hz, Speakers set to "Large"my subwoofers Rock. How can that be if there isn't something happening in the crossover setting?

[jacksonbart]

tdk

I am curious, if you set to large, its passing the full signal, true not for the LFE signal for DTS and DD unless you have the LFE set to mains, which you don't, so you get over lap in room nodes? Still tight bass, no booming, etc. Interesting your results, cool. What's your room size and treatment. I have yet to treat the room, just tweaking the speaker placements.

Thanks

[Zen Traveler]

If I set the RSW's low pass to "Disabled (LFE mode)," then aren't I using the crossover setting on my Denon? Doesn't this make my "low pass control" setting on the RSW irrelevant? What I don't understand is that if I am correct on this assumption, and others who say that setting all Speakers to Large negates the crossover selection, what is being sent to the subwoofer on Dolby Surround (that doesn't have the 6th channel)?

[Zen Traveler]

FRZNINVT or toddvj,

I "want to know what the hell I am doing," and no doubt you guys do--If you can give me simple answers to these questions I would appreciate it.

I will ask this another way from my above posts: If there is no LFE channel on Dolby Surround, and all speakers are set to Large, should there be any sound coming from my Subwoofer (mains + LFE selected on the Denon 4802R)regardless of the crossover? If there is (and it sounds good), what does that mean?

I just tried an experiment with a Dolby surround (no .1) where I set the crossover on the Receiver at 60 Hz and it sounded good--I then set it to 120 Hz, and it was extremely boomy --with all my speakers set to Large. Am I understanding you to say that there should be no sound out of my sub, let alone the difference in crossover settings?

[Zen Traveler]

Jacksonbart you have a PM

[toddvj]

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On 3/3/2005 4:44:32 PM tkdamerica wrote:

If I set the RSW's low pass to "Disabled (LFE mode)," then aren't I using the crossover setting on my Denon? Doesn't this make my "low pass control" setting on the RSW irrelevant? What I don't understand is that if I am correct on this assumption, and others who say that setting all Speakers to Large negates the crossover selection, what is being sent to the subwoofer on Dolby Surround (that doesn't have the 6th channel)?

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Yes and No. The Low Pass Control setting will still determine the "cut-off" frequency of the sub. In other words, if you set your Low Pass Filter to 80, you will get no Frequencies above 80Hz from the subwoofer (in simplified terms. Actually, the sub will start to "roll off" at 80.)

The LFE in movie soundtracks extends usually up to 120Hz, although it can go higher (which also answers your other question above). So, to use the "Magic" 80Hz number, if you set the Low Pass Filter on the sub at 80, you are missing everything from 80Hz-120Hz from the LFE track (again, in simple terms). Those frequencies, contrary to what some people may believe, are not rechannelled to the Main Speakers, they are just gone. The exception of course is those who choose to send the LFE to the Sub+Main, which is probably a good way to do it if you feel your sub is too Boomy at the "higher" frequencies.

If you set your speakers to large, the only thing that Should go to the sub is the LFE. I haven't tested the theory on my system, but I suppose different surround settings on different hardware might override this. Also, keep in mind that this means ALL speakers are set at large, including the surrounds.

Lastly, to address your final post, can you even choose a Crossover Setting after you select "large" speakers? I wouldn't think you'd be able to, but I disconnected my OSD video connection last time I changed things around, and have been too lazy to hook it back up.

[jacksonbart]

"Yes and No. The Low Pass Control setting will still determine the "cut-off" frequency of the sub. In other words, if you set your Low Pass Filter to 80, you will get no Frequencies above 80Hz from the subwoofer (in simplified terms. Actually, the sub will start to "roll off" at 80.)

The LFE in movie soundtracks extends usually up to 120Hz, although it can go higher (which also answers your other question above). So, to use the "Magic" 80Hz number, if you set the Low Pass Filter on the sub at 80, you are missing everything from 80Hz-120Hz from the LFE track (again, in simple terms). Those frequencies, contrary to what some people may believe, are not rechannelled to the Main Speakers, they are just gone. The exception of course is those who choose to send the LFE to the Sub+Main, which is probably a good way to do it if you feel your sub is too Boomy at the "higher" frequencies."

toddvj

Edit: I think we are saying the same thing, when I re-re-read what you wrote up above. Let me know. thz

Now you got me thinking. From my manual I understood those two setting differently. First the The sub cross over is the point at which all bass signals from the mains, Center & surrounds get passed to the Sub and point at which the bottom end begins to roll off on every thing but the sub. This cross over only applies to speakers you set to small. Speakers set to large get the full signal and no cross over is applied.

The LFE setting determines whether to split the LFE signal ( LFE only on surround mixes) to both your mains and sub or just to your sub. You should have the sub low pass disabled so it plays all frequencies past to it, or attempts to anyway. So in your example if you set the cross over to 80hz and have the LFE set to LFE only (not LFE + mains) and the LFE presented a 120hz signal, it would be played by the sub, since the cross over only applies to the discrete signals sent to the mains, center & surrounds, not the LFE. You should not be missing any of the signal is my understanding and experiance.

TDK - I am using a Denon (check my profile) as well, so you should be in the same boat.

[toddvj]

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On 3/4/2005 7:27:26 AM jacksonbart wrote:

Edit: I think we are saying the same thing, when I re-re-read what you wrote up above. Let me know. thz

Now you got me thinking. From my manual I understood those two setting differently. First the The sub cross over is the point at which all bass signals from the mains, Center & surrounds get passed to the Sub and point at which the bottom end begins to roll off on every thing but the sub. This cross over only applies to speakers you set to small. Speakers set to large get the full signal and no cross over is applied.

The LFE setting determines whether to split the LFE signal ( LFE only on surround mixes) to both your mains and sub or just to your sub. You should have the sub low pass disabled so it plays all frequencies past to it, or attempts to anyway. So in your example if you set the cross over to 80hz and have the LFE set to LFE only (not LFE + mains) and the LFE presented a 120hz signal, it would be played by the sub, since the cross over only applies to the discrete signals sent to the mains, center & surrounds, not the LFE. You should not be missing any of the signal is my understanding and experiance.

TDK - I am using a Denon (check my profile) as well, so you should be in the same boat.

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Yep, sounds like we are on the same page. Your second paragraph is Exactly Right, with those settings, you still get the 120Hz from the Sub, if it is encoded in the LFE track.