Cornwall Veneer Project

[3dzapper]

Mitch,

I bought a "veneer router bit" and never had any luck with it.

The trick I use is to hold my 1/8" thick carpenters square against the edge and trimming against it, then sanding the edge flush. This prevents splitting and the Exacto knife following the grain to where it should not go.

Rick

[texican58]

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On 4/10/2005 7:44:12 PM 3dzapper wrote:

Mitch,

I bought a "veneer router bit" and never had any luck with it.

The trick I use is to hold my 1/8" thick carpenters square against the edge and trimming against it, then sanding the edge flush. This prevents splitting and the Exacto knife following the grain to where it should not go.

Rick

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Rick,

Thank you so much for adding that tidbit. I was hoping that there was an easy way to trim the veneer without a knife, but it seems that it's the safest way to get a quality job. I'll abandon the router/cutter approach and go with the manual way. It may take a little bit more time, but I don't have to worry about slipping w/ a router.

Great advice...thanx....mitch

[greg928gts]

I don't think a router is a good way to go either.

I've recently started tipping my pieces upside down on a table with the edge on a piece of hardwood or metal and cutting the veneer overlap off with a sharp knife. You have a lot more control cutting down onto the veneer than reaching up underneath, especially when you are seated in front of it and looking closely at where you're cutting. (I used to cut up underneath the veneer with a metal straight edge on top, and before that I would cut from the top, against a metal straight edge)

You just have to be careful not to cut in with the grain. You also have to be careful not to rip the veneer at the end. Sometimes I cut in from both sides to the middle.

No matter what, you have to be very careful cutting the overlap off. I now finish the freshly cut edge with a block sander instead of a power sander like I did before.

You'll still want to dab a little glue on the cut edges with your finger before gluing the next side on so you get a good joint at the edge.

Just a general comment - this iron-on method has not gotten any easier for me even though I've now done a lot of it. I still have the same problems with bubbling and getting the veneer to stick down everywhere evenly. I also have the same problems with cracking and keeping the matched edges tight.

Greg

[texican58]

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On 4/12/2005 8:43:33 PM greg928s4 wrote:

I don't think a router is a good way to go either.

I've recently started tipping my pieces upside down on a table with the edge on a piece of hardwood or metal and cutting the veneer overlap off with a sharp knife. You have a lot more control cutting down onto the veneer than reaching up underneath, especially when you are seated in front of it and looking closely at where you're cutting. (I used to cut up underneath the veneer with a metal straight edge on top, and before that I would cut from the top, against a metal straight edge)

You just have to be careful not to cut in with the grain. You also have to be careful not to rip the veneer at the end. Sometimes I cut in from both sides to the middle.

No matter what, you have to be very careful cutting the overlap off. I now finish the freshly cut edge with a block sander instead of a power sander like I did before.

You'll still want to dab a little glue on the cut edges with your finger before gluing the next side on so you get a good joint at the edge.

Just a general comment - this iron-on method has not gotten any easier for me even though I've now done a lot of it. I still have the same problems with bubbling and getting the veneer to stick down everywhere evenly. I also have the same problems with cracking and keeping the matched edges tight.

Greg

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Greg,

See....that's what scares me the most about this project (are you reading Colter?). I truly appreciate your valuable input on this process. I've seen your work, and you make it look easy although it's probably quite tedious.

Turning it over and cutting down against a hard surface makes complete sense. So does using the block sanding approach for finishing.

My issues are more with getting the bookmatching to stay together using veneering tape. (That just sounds too fragile). What about applying some glue to the edges of the bookmatched sides (or do you already do that)?

What's the 'cracking' problem that you mentioned?

Re: Ironing, do you use a damp cheesecloth or pillowcase-like fabric between you and the iron? Are you at it's highest setting (Cotton+)?

Let me know...and thanks for the input.

mitch

[greg928gts]

I'm always surprised at the ability of the fragile veneer tape to hold the pieces together while I work with them, but it always seems to work. When I speak of problems with the matched edges not being tight, it has to do with warps in the veneer, or slightly crooked cuts that keep the matched edges from being taped tight together to begin with.

I know it sounds stupid, but spit seems to be the best thing for the veneer tape. Also, I only use the solid veneer tape, not the perforated.

Someone told me about old packing tape, the paper kind that has the adhesive coating on one side. Apparently this works quite well. They mentioned the affect of the tape shrinking and pulling the joints closer together.

The cracks that I've experienced are from veneer that soaked up a lot of glue and expanded, then while gluing the veneer down, the moisture is driven out and the wood shrinks. Of course the wood is already adhered so it cracks. I didn't have too much trouble with the rosewood, but the oak was terrible.

I use the iron directly on the veneer on the highest setting. Sometimes it scorches a little, but sanding takes it right out. I've experimented with the amount of glue to use and found that I didn't need to second-coat the glue, just one good heavy even coat on the veneer and another on the speaker seems to be as good as anything I've tried. I've experimented with the length of time to hold the iron on the wood and found that sometimes leaving the iron on one spot too long actually makes it difficult to set the veneer.

By far the biggest problem and the one that I haven't been able to solve is bubbling. After ironing the veneer on and before sanding, I check every square inch of the veneer by tapping on it with my fingers listening intently for any loose veneer. Sometimes repairing is as simple as holding the iron on that area, or the point of the iron on for just a few seconds, and other times it just really needs more heat. With the repairs to reset the veneer, I always have a damp rag to push down on the area. The dampness draws the heat out and sets the glue. What sucks is when you've already sanded and then you find a loose spot and repair it and then have a slight indentation in the veneer. Carefully sanding around that area putting slight pressure into the depressed area will even it out, but you have to be very careful not to sand through the veneer. Something like that I always use 180 grit for, just to be on the safe side.

I guess I should put more of this detailed information on my webpages, but I just don't seem to have the time. Of course I just spent the time doing it here! Duh.

Greg

[Tom Mobley]

Greg, glad to see you posting about this stuff again. A couple things:

"The cracks that I've experienced are from veneer that soaked up a lot of glue and expanded, then while gluing the veneer down, the moisture is driven out and the wood shrinks. Of course the wood is already adhered so it cracks. I didn't have too much trouble with the rosewood, but the oak was terrible."

I had some trouble with this when I veneered the raw mahogany onto the birch ply. I'm in the Phoenix area, so I took to leaving the coated veneer overnight to dry out. Seemed to help some. I was using blue masking tape to hold the pieces together, so I missed out on the tape shrinking effect. I had melted glue seep through the not-so-tight joints a couple times, hard to get rid of.

_______________________________________________________________

"I've experimented with the amount of glue to use and found that I didn't need to second-coat the glue, just one good heavy even coat on the veneer and another on the speaker seems to be as good as anything I've tried."

I used one coat too, never even tried two-coating it.

____________________________________________________________

"By far the biggest problem and the one that I haven't been able to solve is bubbling. After ironing the veneer on and before sanding, I check every square inch of the veneer by tapping on it with my fingers listening intently for any loose veneer. Sometimes repairing is as simple as holding the iron on that area, or the point of the iron on for just a few seconds, and other times it just really needs more heat. With the repairs to reset the veneer, I always have a damp rag to push down on the area. The dampness draws the heat out and sets the glue. What sucks is when you've already sanded and then you find a loose spot and repair it and then have a slight indentation in the veneer."

I had very few problems with bubbling, only really had a couple that were bad, of course they were right in the middle of the top. Where else? Yes, I managed to make some minor low spots re-ironing the bubbles. I never did do anything to take the gloss off the glossy oil-based poly I used, the effect is so flashy the minor defects I have are just lost in the overall scheme of things.

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[greg928gts]

It's hard to find time these days to post much about my projects or to take pictures. My business has got me cranking right now!

Did you iron right over the blue tape? I'm wondering if the adhesive would react with the heat and leave a residue or stain on some veneers, or if removing the tape would be more difficult after being heated.

I don't know what I'm doing or not doing to have problems with bubbling, but it seems to be consistent with every veneer project. I do know that my shop is quite humid due to roof leaks and that could have something to do with it. Water doesn't get on the speakers, but the whole building is wet in a lot of areas. The rent is only $150 a month though for two rooms and my own bathroom just 6 minutes from my house, so I hang plastic and collect water in totes.

I'm so dissapointed with my rosewood La Scalas which have been sitting since last year. I hope to get back on these soon, and I'll have a few more bubbles to work on with those.

Greg

[klipschaholik]

Greg,

Don't feel bad. I've had the same problem with the rosewood on my scalas too. I thought that using the supersoft and heatlock glue would help prevent the splitting but this wood has been much worse than the walnut I used on my heresys. I found that with the bubble problem when I tried to reheat the glue the wood would split. I've been working on these in my carport which is open to the FL humidity and its been pretty damp. I really think the moisture is having something to do with the problem. I applied some BLO to the top of this speaker to try and keep out the moisture but that hasn't helped much either. As far as finishing the edges goes, I'm a firm believer in hand sanding. I trimed the edges down with an exacto knife and then finish with a 100 grit and then a 150 grit wrapped in a block of wood. Always cut and sand from the ends to the middle to prevent tearing a corner. I'll buy the beer if someone figures out the splitting problem before I tackle the next speaker. I put some more pics up on my heresy veneering project thread from last year. Good luck

Oh by the way the rosewood I'm using has a rather unpleasant odor about it. Does yours or did I just end up with some wood with a BO problem. Even after treating with oil the smell is still there. This may end up being a bigger problem than the splitting as the wifey may send these out to the doghouse to stay with me!

[greg928gts]

I concur with the sanding block idea, it's much better than the power sander, more control.

Maybe I need to try a dehumidifier in the shop when I do my next project.

No unpleasant odor in my rosewood. I guess that means there's one more thing to think about, always smell your wood before installing it!

Greg

[formica]

Tom and Greg do you guys both using wood glue which you let dry and then ironing on the veneer? I'm curious if it's worth it... as I've used contact glue on non-audio projects without too much difficulty.

Tom, I seem to remember you mentioning difficulty on you Belles... would you do it that way again? (BTW, they looked great once you were done... )

Rob

[Tom Mobley]

Greg-

>>Did you iron right over the blue tape? I'm wondering if the adhesive would react with the heat and leave a residue or stain on some veneers, or if removing the tape would be more difficult after being heated. <<

I did iron right over it. but I tested on scrap first. I was able to wipe the residue right off with mineral spirits (solvent.) I had the thicker raw veneer from Certainly Wood so I was prepared to do some sanding too. I also used the solvent for wet sanding with 600 grit between the applications of thinned oil-based poly. No water ever got near the wood.

Rob, I used Tite-Bond II, used a cheap short bristle brush to apply it. These are the brushes usually used for applying stripper. I had to pick a few bristles out of the glue before it dried. I need to think about trying the contact cement with paper-backed veneer. I don't see the rosewood in the thicker, raw version.

Where did you guys get your rosewood? Was it raw or paper backed?

[Marvel]

Guitar builders use a Dremel for a lot of the edge trimming and routing. Just like a big router, but a lot more control. That might make it easier for trimming down the edges.

You can have a look at:

http://www.stewmac.com

http://www.stewmac.com/shop/Tools/Special_tools_for:_Routing.html

Marvel

[klipschaholik]

Tom,

I got the rosewood for my scalas off ebay. I was able to purchase enough in the lot to complete the pair but just barely. For some reason the veneer worked very well inside the dog house. No splits or bubbles. I'm now considering using contact cement on the other one to see if the heat set glue is causing the wood to draw up and split. I've used it on counter tops before but that's altogether different from applying veneer. If that flops too, I've got some cherry that I was saving to use on a set of decorator style heresys. But I may just scrape off the rosewood on the exterior and use the cherry leaving the rosewood inside the doghouse. Course I still have the odor problem to deal with.

Gordon

[BS Button]

OK, everybody. Go to www.tyleracoustics.com,look under...about us, products, finishes and you'll see first hand speaker production with a veneering operation. As you can see, he uses products from Oakwood veneer company and you can go to that website. He does not iron on. He uses some type of spray on adhesive and rarely has any issues whatsoever. I have met Tyler and been through the plant, just 60 miles up the road...great guy. Small two to three man operation that produces a great product, if you're not a Klipschter. He is all over Audiogon. Anyway, he sands this stuff without problem and stains and finishes with Lacquer. I believe this product is heavily supported with melamine, but has other layers to aid in a good looking product. I did not hear of any problems with cracking on this type of veneer...Questions? By the way, Greg 928 or...you're skills are absolutely amazing, but I think this method and product may be more suitable for us in the novice category.

BS

[greg928gts]

Thanks BS, but lately I think my "skills" are more in the "repair and hide problems" department! I don't know about this iron-on method, I might look into another method in the future.

The backed veneer with contact cement is easy and the joints are always very tight. The issues remain, edges of the backer that don't match the veneer and not being able to sand very much, if at all.

Tom - backed rosewood veneer in 4 x 8 sheets from Tapeease, and raw rosewood from Certainly Wood or B+B Rare Woods.

Greg