greg928gts Posted March 15, 2005 Share Posted March 15, 2005 I know this has probably been covered before, but here's my experience. First off, I'd like to thank Guy and Erik for sending me tubes to try out. These 2A3 tubes are kind of expensive to be buying for experimenting. Once again the generosity of other forum members makes being a part of this group a real treat. Guy sent a pair of KR 2A3's, and upon opening the box I was impressed with the quality and look of these. Erik sent a pair of AVVT's, and wow, you talk about a big 2A3! I already had some RCA black plate, NOS from 1943, and a pair of used Sovteks. The last time I rolled tubes, the Sovteks beat out the RCA's. This time it was more difficult for me to say for sure which of these two were better. For some reason, the RCA's sound distorted to me. Just a little. No question that both the KRs and the AVVTs are better sounding than either the RCAs that I have or the Sovteks. In fact, now I can really hear the Sovteks for what they are, a very simple tube. They sound narrow compared to the KRs or AVVTs. I kept the KRs in the longest I think. The sound intrigued me. On one song I would think that the high end was too harsh, but then on another they sounded very sweet. One thing stands out with the KRs, and that's the speed. They were very punchy in the low end, quick and precise. Since they are so obviously bigger than any of the other 2A3's, would it be corny to say that the AVVTs sounded bigger? But that's the best word I can come up with to describe the sound, big. The other thing that really stood out was the smoothness in the high frequencies. Everything I threw at them sounded smooth and mellow, yet still detailed. I was very impressed with these. Erik, I can't thank you enough for just GIVING THESE TUBES TO ME! No kidding, he and his wife just told me to keep them. Thank you thank you thank you! Greg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Robinson Posted March 15, 2005 Share Posted March 15, 2005 The AVVT's are really fine in the right amp. I love them in my Horus'. They really make the music sound like music. "Big" is a good descriptor. "Presence" is another word that comes to mind. VERY nice of Erik and Marie to donate those to the cause. That is an amazing gift. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erik Mandaville Posted March 16, 2005 Share Posted March 16, 2005 Great, I'm glad this has worked out, Greg. Your listening impressions of the KRs and AVVTs are very similar to my own, and I think I prefer both in the long run over others I have. Considering the important price/performance question, Sovteks are hard to beat, but they don't seem to possess the same qualities of scale and largeness of the two comparatively more expensive tubes. And you are very welcome. The pair of KRs I first owned and learned to like very much were also given to me by another forum member, and they are not inexpensive tubes by any means. The AVVTS are not new tubes at this point, but we just thought they would be a good way of giving you an idea of the sound. They're pretty nice to look at in the dark, no? Big, skyscraper triodes! Enjoy, Erik Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sunnysal Posted March 16, 2005 Share Posted March 16, 2005 too bad AVVT tubes are no longer made, I wonder what the best sounding tube, in current production, is? tony Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daddy Dee Posted March 17, 2005 Share Posted March 17, 2005 Current production 2A3's. I don't know all what's out there... Sovtek, Valve Art, TJ Mesh, EH, Shuaguang (is that different than Valveart?) What else? edit: I was quite impressed with the way the ValveART (chinese) tubes sounded in the Paramours. They also had a most pleasant blue glow about them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Posted March 17, 2005 Share Posted March 17, 2005 Greg, thanks for posting, wish I knew the price of the tubes, so I can put a value on the difference between KRs and Sovteks, but after reading some of your other posts, maybe I will wait to see if your impressions change! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jazman Posted March 17, 2005 Share Posted March 17, 2005 ---------------- On 3/15/2005 8:53:01 PM greg928s4 wrote: I know this has probably been covered before, but here's my experience. First off, I'd like to thank Guy and Erik for sending me tubes to try out. These 2A3 tubes are kind of expensive to be buying for experimenting. Once again the generosity of other forum members makes being a part of this group a real treat. Guy sent a pair of KR 2A3's, and upon opening the box I was impressed with the quality and look of these. Erik sent a pair of AVVT's, and wow, you talk about a big 2A3! I already had some RCA black plate, NOS from 1943, and a pair of used Sovteks. The last time I rolled tubes, the Sovteks beat out the RCA's. This time it was more difficult for me to say for sure which of these two were better. For some reason, the RCA's sound distorted to me. Just a little. No question that both the KRs and the AVVTs are better sounding than either the RCAs that I have or the Sovteks. In fact, now I can really hear the Sovteks for what they are, a very simple tube. They sound narrow compared to the KRs or AVVTs. I kept the KRs in the longest I think. The sound intrigued me. On one song I would think that the high end was too harsh, but then on another they sounded very sweet. One thing stands out with the KRs, and that's the speed. They were very punchy in the low end, quick and precise. Since they are so obviously bigger than any of the other 2A3's, would it be corny to say that the AVVTs sounded bigger? But that's the best word I can come up with to describe the sound, big. The other thing that really stood out was the smoothness in the high frequencies. Everything I threw at them sounded smooth and mellow, yet still detailed. I was very impressed with these. Erik, I can't thank you enough for just GIVING THESE TUBES TO ME! No kidding, he and his wife just told me to keep them. Thank you thank you thank you! Greg ---------------- Greg, I have not had the opportunity nor the pleasure to hear a pair of the AVT 2A3 tubes so I can't comment on them. The others I have. The KR's were my least favorite 2A3 of the RCA, Sovtek, KR trio. It took several months of listening to come to that conclusion however. The KR's also require a bit more voltage than normally applied to RCA's to extract their better performance. Even then they finished third. I felt they were more tipped at the high frequencies, imparting a more CD or digital image to the presentation. This was undesirable for me since my primary source is vinyl. When combined with CD playback, it was particularly not my cup of tea. I also felt them lacking mid range richness, which I translate as imparting body to the music. The Sovtek, when operated at the same higher voltage as the KR's seemed to become a much better balanced 2A3. The midrange richness it seemed to lack when operated at lower voltage, filled in. At their price, they are a much better value than the KR's. The vintage 30's, early 40's vintage RCA doubleplate blackplates are still the king in my 2A3 Moondogs. Simply put, they display the best balance of presentation. Very musical through all ranges. I also have a pair of Rogers 2A3 blackplates that are close to the RCAs presentation, but not as good. A pair of '43 VT-95 black coated Tungsols on the way, and will be interesting to compare against a pair of RCA VT-95s of similar vintage. I'm hoping to be lucky enough to purchase some RCA single plates sometime this year. Must save many dollars! A pair of AVVT's could be an appealling alternative if the quest for the RCA single plates become too expensive to live with. As always, personal taste and musical preferences dictate our individual choices. Each persons mileage does vary. By the way, it takes some break in period before RCA's bloom into the reference tube they are well known to be. It took months of listening to one pair of tubes, then rolling into another for another couple of months to get a grip of the sonic signatures of each of these 2A3s. Last, both KR and AVVT have been known to have quality control issues, which makes the source of KR and AVVT purchase very important. They are not a no brainer purchase. Enjoy the music. Klipsch out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guy Landau Posted March 17, 2005 Share Posted March 17, 2005 Edmond, I still got 3 RCA black plate 2A3 tubes that I have no use for and I'd like to sell. 2 are JAN CRC and the third is VT-95. PM/email me if you need some spares and might be interested. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erik Mandaville Posted March 17, 2005 Share Posted March 17, 2005 "Last, both KR and AVVT have been known to have quality control issues, which makes the source of KR and AVVT purchase very important." Greg: This is actually very true. In fact, I know of a couple of people who had AVVTs that seemed more prone to noise than some other examples of the tube they had. I also got the AVVTs you now have used, but was lucky that they were probably the most noise-free of any of my 2A3s. However, that certainly doesn't mean that the same would be the case for any that may be found. Welborne Labs also used to carry the KRs, but discontinued the association because of apparent warranty difficulties. I went to great lengths to find sources for the KR2A3, which I happened to like. I borrowed a pair from another forum membmer, returned them, and then was very kindly given a pair by yet another forum member. The KRs are built unlike most other 2A3s in that they can handle considerably higher voltages. The image of the wiring of Edmond's Moondogs is installed in my mind's eye very clearly, in that 1) it is among the best point-to-point wiring I have seen and 2) the former owner had installed a by-pass switch across the primary dropping resistor in the power supply -- indeed, with just the KR2A3 in mind. Since I haven't altered my amps to take advantage of its greater power handling ability, I just can't comment on the result. Certainly one might expect an increase of a watt or two more than more conventional 2A3s. I had been using the KRs in my Horus amp, and very much liked what they did. That's just my taste, though. Some have described the tube as a sort of 'transistor in a bottle,' but I just don't respond to its character in that way. That's one of the nice things, I guess, about having so many different types of 2A3s to choose from. We got our KRs from a very helpful dealer in Canada. Erik Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jazman Posted March 17, 2005 Share Posted March 17, 2005 ---------------- On 3/17/2005 7:27:40 PM Erik Mandaville wrote: The KRs are built unlike most other 2A3s in that they can handle considerably higher voltages. The image of the wiring of Edmond's Moondogs is installed in my mind's eye very clearly, in that 1) it is among the best point-to-point wiring I have seen and 2) the former owner had installed a by-pass switch across the primary dropping resistor in the power supply -- indeed, with just the KR2A3 in mind. Since I haven't altered my amps to take advantage of its greater power handling ability, ....That's one of the nice things, I guess, about having so many different types of 2A3s to choose from. We got our KRs from a very helpful dealer in Canada. Erik ---------------- Eric, You are correct about the purpose of the switch on my Moondogs. It simply by-passes the dropping resistor, which is what Welbourne recommends to utilize the KR2A3, and extract that extra wpc. As a side note, after spending several months with the KR 2A3's courtesy of edster, I sent my more detailed notes on the KR tubes to the builder of my amps who had given me the option of including the KRs with the sale, which I did not do. Maybe my results are amp dependent, but he felt my findings very much mirrored his experience with the KR's. We had never discussed them prior to me sending my notes, well over a year and a half after purchase of the Moondogs. So once again, everyones mileage varies. You may or may not be aware that, according to some information I have read, the Sovtek 2A3 is quite rugged and capable of operating at the higher voltages of the KR2A3 with great reliability. I found that at the higher voltage the Sovtek sounds more balanced and truly becomes more RCA in character. Here again though, the RCA's sounded the best at the higher voltage. Their cost however, prohibits any temptation to operate them at the higher voltage over any prolonged period of time. I plan to try a reliability test of the Sovtek 2A3 operating with the higher voltage applied over a period of maybe six months. Measuring the Sovteks with my Hickok before and after, hopefuly to make a projection of tube life at the higher voltage. The only problem being, after a few months of listening to other 2A3's, I usually want to get back to listening to RCAs. Indeed, one of the nice things about the 2A3, there are many different vintage types to choose from, along with many current Chinese production types, including a new Chinese single plate version I recently say advertised for sale on Audiogon. I'm always curious as to how they measure up to the vintage RCA standard. Klipsch out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erik Mandaville Posted March 17, 2005 Share Posted March 17, 2005 Greg: If you would, and if your tester can accept and test 4 pin triodes, would you check where the AVVTs are standing right now? I would be interested in knowing, just in an academic sense, how they perform as you continue to use them. Remember they are certainly not new, but have been very well taken care of. I'm definitely not one of those who believes it necessary or beneficial (quite the contrary, actually) to leave amplifiers on all day, and all night, each day of every year. If one has a standby switch on the component in question, that is a little different. The stock Horus should actually be fine for the AVVT. There have been reports of some arcing when powering down, and there is a small remedy for that which can be installed, but I haven't had problems with them as far as I can tell. Erik Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greg928gts Posted March 17, 2005 Author Share Posted March 17, 2005 Well Jazman, as I read your description of the KR, I couldn't disagree. However, I still like the sound. Even though I would agree the sound is a bit flat through the midrange, I would describe the overall presentation as very clean and punchy, and that difference sounded good to me. I must say that the differences between all these tubes is fairly slight in my opinion. If a novice sat down and listened to the same song on my system with me rolling tubes, they would just as likely comment on the differences the same way whether I actually did roll the tubes or perhaps just told them I rolled tubes without actually doing it. Talking about these subtle differences as if our systems were suddenly transformed and all the sound we had been missing for years belched forward out of the midrange horn of our speakers is exactly the kind of thing that labels us audiophiles in the nerdiest sense. I don't know why the RCA's that I have don't sound good to me, but they don't. They almost sound distorted. Beleive me when I tell you that I wish this were not the case for I paid over $200 for those three little buggers. I don't have time right now to test the AVVT's, but maybe sometime later I can. The AVVT's are actually quieter in my amps than any of the others. Very slightly quieter. I continue to have a hum in both of my amps no matter what I do to them. I don't really know how to check the insides of the amps to track down a hum problem either. Just had a nice long listening session with them tonight. These really sound nice. The guy who bought my Cornwalls stopped by to pick them up and he stayed for a while to listen to the Khorns. He also just bought Khorns in the last couple of days too! These are his first Klipsch speakers and I think he's hooked now. Greg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike stehr Posted March 17, 2005 Share Posted March 17, 2005 "I don't know why the RCA's that I have don't sound good to me, but they don't. They almost sound distorted. Beleive me when I tell you that I wish this were not the case for I paid over $200 for those three little buggers" They may be getting pinched a bit, a re-bias could help possibly. Dunno if the amps/amp is self-biased or not. Sovtek and KR can take a little more voltage and current than the old NOS tubes. If the amp/amps are biased with KR and Sovtek tubes, they may run the NOS harder. I'm with Jazman, one of my TJ solid plate 300B went dead after a year. That's beat for a 100 dollar tube. I'm using NOS Military 2A3's now and couldn't be more happy. What little I lost in power tripled in sound quality. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jazman Posted March 17, 2005 Share Posted March 17, 2005 ---------------- On 3/17/2005 10:07:59 PM greg928s4 wrote: Well Jazman, as I read your description of the KR, I couldn't disagree. However, I still like the sound. Even though I would agree the sound is a bit flat through the midrange, I would describe the overall presentation as very clean and punchy, and that difference sounded good to me. I must say that the differences between all these tubes is fairly slight in my opinion. If a novice sat down and listened to the same song on my system with me rolling tubes, they would just as likely comment on the differences the same way whether I actually did roll the tubes or perhaps just told them I rolled tubes without actually doing it. Talking about these subtle differences as if our systems were suddenly transformed and all the sound we had been missing for years belched forward out of the midrange horn of our speakers is exactly the kind of thing that labels us audiophiles in the nerdiest sense. I don't know why the RCA's that I have don't sound good to me, but they don't. They almost sound distorted. Beleive me when I tell you that I wish this were not the case for I paid over $200 for those three little buggers. I don't have time right now to test the AVVT's, but maybe sometime later I can. The AVVT's are actually quieter in my amps than any of the others. Very slightly quieter. I continue to have a hum in both of my amps no matter what I do to them. I don't really know how to check the insides of the amps to track down a hum problem either. Just had a nice long listening session with them tonight. These really sound nice. The guy who bought my Cornwalls stopped by to pick them up and he stayed for a while to listen to the Khorns. He also just bought Khorns in the last couple of days too! These are his first Klipsch speakers and I think he's hooked now. Greg ---------------- Greg, It took many "months" of listening to the same pair before rolling, then shorter periods listening with each to understand what I thought each of these 2A3 tubes offered in contrast to the other. One thing I did not say is, one particular tube should be good for everyone. Eric really likes the KRs. Try leaving the RCA's in for an extended period if you can stand it. If that does not help, maybe I can send you a pair to audition sometime in the future. Klipsch out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spaaaz Posted March 18, 2005 Share Posted March 18, 2005 These are supposed to be the best new production but at near 500 a pair I will never hear a pair. http://www.emissionlabs.com/index-en.htm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike stehr Posted March 18, 2005 Share Posted March 18, 2005 Sure is purdy..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erik Mandaville Posted March 18, 2005 Share Posted March 18, 2005 Greg: Mike said (was it mike or Edmond!?) "Sovtek and KR can take a little more voltage and current than the old NOS tubes. If the amp/amps are biased with KR and Sovtek tubes, they may run the NOS harder." This is absolutely right. I seemed to find something similar to your experience with the RCAs in the Horus and Moondogs. With the GZ37 and 5AR4 rectifiers, the Moondogs in my amp exceeded the max. plate voltage (taken between cathode and plate)by about 75 VDC. While this would be a complete non-issue for the KRs, and in fact would be to their advantage, the max plate voltage given for the RCA manual for this type of tube is 250. The stock Moondogs, per the specs given on the schematic, exceed that figure by about 55 volts. I'm not saying that this is a problem in your amps or with your tubes (since there better and less good examples of every kind of tube in existence), but it's one of the reasons I started using 5Y3 rectifier in both the Moondog and Horus amps. This brought the voltage down a bit, and was thus a little more gentle on our antique RCA 2A3s. I just felt better about it. But! I have to say that the RCAs (bi-plates)sound exceptionally good in the Moth amp. Really very, very nice. I have the Moth operating within a very close tolerance/listed specs for the 2A3, and very much like what I hear -- through headphones, since this is how I use the amp on a daily basis. I think the RCA in the Moth is extremely well balanced in terms of frequency response, and just doesn't seem to favor any particular frequency range. In the Horus, the RCAs are 'ok,' but don't have that 'reach-out-and-grab-you' sort of quality of the KRs, AVVTs, or in fact the Sovteks. Also of possible interest, all my RCAs test a bit lower than the other brands. All that said, I confess this poses something of a philosophical issue: What is more true to real, live music? A tube like the AVVTs or KRs that have (to me)a very appealing sense of scale and dynamic contrast (to me that lends excitement to listening) or the subjectively more intimate and understated nature of the RCA? I don't know that there is a completely clear answer to that, and it might have something to do with the kinds of music one like to listen to, and how loud one likes that music to be. You mention a chronic him problem, Greg. I might be able to help you with that. Erik Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Posted March 18, 2005 Share Posted March 18, 2005 Thanks for the information. Good to know. But lets see if I remember my college statistics. It takes 30 observations to mathematically correlate 1 independent variable to a dependant variable, or something like that. So if we have 4 reviewers, 4 tubes, 1 low and 1 high voltage setting, all the same components and loudspeakers (a BIG assumption) and listen to the same 4 songs (different types, same medium) of music and same 2 movies (different types) tracks, at 3 to 10 minutes long, then we are talking about 48 tests for about 144 minutes (call it 3 hours, with cooling and swapping) per reviewer, or 12 hours total. Makes even measurably objective reviews like the venerable Stereophile magazine seem ludicrously arbitrary, doesnt it? How many of us have the same tubes, can set voltage, share the same components, agree on the same media and perform the same test? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jazman Posted March 18, 2005 Share Posted March 18, 2005 ---------------- On 3/18/2005 9:22:04 AM Colin wrote: Thanks for the information. Good to know. But lets see if I remember my college statistics. It takes 30 observations to mathematically correlate 1 independent variable to a dependant variable, or something like that. So if we have 4 reviewers, 4 tubes, 1 low and 1 high voltage setting, all the same components and loudspeakers (a BIG assumption) and listen to the same 4 songs (different types, same medium) of music and same 2 movies (different types) tracks, at 3 to 10 minutes long, then we are talking about 48 tests for about 144 minutes (call it 3 hours, with cooling and swapping) per reviewer, or 12 hours total. Makes even measurably objective reviews like the venerable Stereophile magazine seem ludicrously arbitrary, doesnt it? How many of us have the same tubes, can set voltage, share the same components, agree on the same media and perform the same test? ---------------- Maybe you did not read the part of in one of my posts the stated, my results could be "amp dependent", as well as my last post where I stated, "It took many "months" of listening to the same pair before rolling, then shorter periods listening with each to understand what I thought each of these 2A3 tubes offered in contrast to the other. One thing I did not say is, one particular tube should be good for everyone. " And please, no movies are part of the equation. Different forum. Klipsch out Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Posted March 18, 2005 Share Posted March 18, 2005 read the posts, enjoyed them too, just truying to be a little devil, and movies absolutely do count... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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