Into the deep with headphones

[Erik Mandaville]

Ben:

I've seen Pat Metheny several times, and he is absolutely one of my very favorite modern jazz composer/performers. I once saw him (when Danny Gottlieb was on drums)at a club in Wisconsin, and was lucky enough to get a seat about 15 feet from the stage. This was during the 'As Falls Wichita Falls' period, with Nana Vasconcielos (plese don't hold me to that spelling -- I'm tired, but that would be tough anytime!)playing percussion. It was among the best shows I've ever seen -- just incredible.

Marie and I also saw him hear in Houston a few years ago, and it was just as much fun.

Erik

[Parrot]

Erik,

It's becoming progressively clearer to me that you are just looking to argue and be confrontational. You asked for comments and advice, but are offended and defensive when I give you some, even though I did so as reasonably and politely as I could possibly have been expected to.

I did not say anything about tape hiss. I was talking about scraping, or flutter. The hyperdetail was concerning headphones, not your amps with Klipschorns.

I imagine the problem you hear, or think you have, with your Klipschorns is primarily room-based in its origins. It's a wonder that a magical processor, coupled with magical SET amps, can't overcome that.

EDIT: But nothing, and I mean nothing, in the world will make Pat Metheny sound good.

[ben.]

Heh... You're number one! (I'm telling you in sign language, too! )

I have a feeling LPB's mojo is wearing off. He just doesn't seem to be able to annoy us like he used to. Sigh...

The trouble for him is that it would take a significant investment of time and effort to become well known enough in any other web forum to achieve the "status" he has earned around here.

[edwinr]

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On 5/24/2005 6:33:29 PM ben. wrote:

I think you could just about knock me over with a feather, as I am in a state of shock and disbelief that the Parrot actually answered a direct question! Pretty lame answers, but perhaps that explains a lot of past posting habits...

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I think, Ben, you've missed the entire point of Parrot's philosophy. Is it not the work of a great tutor to pose questions that the ignorant masses should attempt to answer? Parrot's role is to guide us along the path of knowledge, not to spoon feed us every step of the way.

[Erik Mandaville]

Paul:

It sounds like we might be coming a conclusion here, but I'm happy to go on for a bit if you would like. I'm good for several more pages.

"You asked for comments and advice, but are offended and defensive when I give you some, even though I did so as reasonably and politely as I could possibly have been expected to."

Indeed you have. I have taken a close look at the word "Moth," and can certainly see how there would be a subtle but clearly defined correlation with the sound of the amplifier. In fact, I have now begun to note how other names, such as Welborne Labs, Denon, Teac, and Lexicon all seem to influence the sound of our system in small but very specific ways.

I have also thrown away all LPs and CDs that have any remote connection to Pat Metheny, even if he was only featured as a guest artist (just between the two of us, who in their right mind would want him to contribute something to a selection of music, anyway!?)

Thanks for the insights and suggestions,

Erik

[Allan Songer]

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On 5/24/2005 7:24:31 PM Parrot wrote:

How bad is this one, Allan?

http://www.cduniverse.com/productinfo.asp?style=music&bab=E&pid=6667581&cart=249310742----------------

Pretty bad. Helen Merrill married a Japanese man and moved to Tokyo in 1964. For some reason she found MAINSTREAM success in Japan and recorded a whole string of LPs for the Japanese RCA label. One of them ("Bossa Nova in Toyko") is actully very good,

but "Sings Beatles," "Sings Screen Favorites" and "Sings Folk" (which has a really wacky "Where Have all the Flowers Gone?" done to a samba beat) are pretty bad.

What is really amazing about this period in her career is that while she was recording this pop fluff for the Japanese market she was ALSO recording what are in my opinion the BEST TWO JAZZ VOCAL LPs of the 1960's--"The Feeling is Mutual" and "A Shade of Difference" on Milestone. These were basically collaborations with pianist Dick Katz and the band they put together for these sessions is incredilbe-- the first LP included Katz on piano, Thad Jones on trumpet, Jim Hall on guitar, Ron Carter on bass and Pete LaRoca on drums. The second LP featured Katz again on piano, Hall on guitar, Hubert Laws on flute, Thad Jones on cornet and flugelhorn, Gary Bartz on alto, Ron Carter on bass and Elvin Jones on drums.

Of course you have never heard these LPs.

Katz and Merrill got together again in 1979 for "Chasin' the Bird" with a group that featured the great Pepper Adams on baritone, Mel Lewis on drums, Rufus Reid on bass and Joe Puma on guitar.

[fini]

Erik,

Good start, but you will also want to go through your music collection, reading liner notes, and visiting websites, to determine whether Metheney was mentioned as an inspiration, and influence, or even a casual acquaintance.

[Allan Songer]

Pat Metheny on Kenny G:

Question:

Pat, could you tell us your opinion about Kenny G - it appears you were quoted as being less than enthusiastic about him and his music. I would say that most of the serious music listeners in the world would not find your opinion surprising or unlikely - but you were vocal about it for the first time. You are generally supportive of other musicians it seems.

Pat's Answer:

Kenny G is not a musician I really had much of an opinion about at all until recently. There was not much about the way he played that interested me one way or the other either live or on records.

I first heard him a number of years ago playing as a sideman with Jeff Lorber when they opened a concert for my band. My impression was that he was someone who had spent a fair amount of time listening to the more pop oriented sax players of that time, like Grover Washington or David Sanborn, but was not really an advanced player, even in that style. He had major rhythmic problems and his harmonic and melodic vocabulary was extremely limited, mostly to pentatonic based and blues-lick derived patterns, and he basically exhibited only a rudimentary understanding of how to function as a professional soloist in an ensemble - Lorber was basically playing him off the bandstand in terms of actual music.

But he did show a knack for connecting to the basest impulses of the large crowd by deploying his two or three most effective licks (holding long notes and playing fast runs - never mind that there were lots of harmonic clams in them) at the key moments to elicit a powerful crowd reaction (over and over again). The other main thing I noticed was that he also, as he does to this day, played horribly out of tune - consistently sharp.

Of course, I am aware of what he has played since, the success it has had, and the controversy that has surrounded him among musicians and serious listeners. This controversy seems to be largely fueled by the fact that he sells an enormous amount of records while not being anywhere near a really great player in relation to the standards that have been set on his instrument over the past sixty or seventy years. And honestly, there is no small amount of envy involved from musicians who see one of their fellow players doing so well financially, especially when so many of them who are far superior as improvisors and musicians in general have trouble just making a living. There must be hundreds, if not thousands of sax players around the world who are simply better improvising musicians than Kenny G on his chosen instruments. It would really surprise me if even he disagreed with that statement.

Having said that, it has gotten me to thinking lately why so many jazz musicians (myself included, given the right "bait" of a question, as I will explain later) and audiences have gone so far as to say that what he is playing is not even jazz at all. Stepping back for a minute, if we examine the way he plays, especially if one can remove the actual improvising from the often mundane background environment that it is delivered in, we see that his saxophone style is in fact clearly in the tradition of the kind of playing that most reasonably objective listeners WOULD normally quantify as being jazz. It's just that as jazz or even as music in a general sense, with these standards in mind, it is simply not up to the level of playing that we historically associate with professional improvising musicians. So, lately I have been advocating that we go ahead and just include it under the word jazz - since pretty much of the rest of the world OUTSIDE of the jazz community does anyway - and let the chips fall where they may.

And after all, why he should be judged by any other standard, why he should be exempt from that that all other serious musicians on his instrument are judged by if they attempt to use their abilities in an improvisational context playing with a rhythm section as he does? He SHOULD be compared to John Coltrane or Wayne Shorter, for instance, on his abilities (or lack thereof) to play the soprano saxophone and his success (or lack thereof) at finding a way to deploy that instrument in an ensemble in order to accurately gauge his abilities and put them in the context of his instrument's legacy and potential.

As a composer of even eighth note based music, he SHOULD be compared to Herbie Hancock, Horace Silver or even Grover Washington. Suffice it to say, on all above counts, at this point in his development, he wouldn't fare well.

But, like I said at the top, this relatively benign view was all "until recently".

Not long ago, Kenny G put out a recording where he overdubbed himself on top of a 30+ year old Louis Armstrong record, the track "What a Wonderful World". With this single move, Kenny G became one of the few people on earth I can say that I really can't use at all - as a man, for his incredible arrogance to even consider such a thing, and as a musician, for presuming to share the stage with the single most important figure in our music.

This type of musical necrophilia - the technique of overdubbing on the preexisting tracks of already dead performers - was weird when Natalie Cole did it with her dad on "Unforgettable" a few years ago, but it was her dad. When Tony Bennett did it with Billie Holiday it was bizarre, but we are talking about two of the greatest singers of the 20th century who were on roughly the same level of artistic accomplishment. When Larry Coryell presumed to overdub himself on top of a Wes Montgomery track, I lost a lot of the respect that I ever had for him - and I have to seriously question the fact that I did have respect for someone who could turn out to have such unbelievably bad taste and be that disrespectful to one of my personal heroes.

But when Kenny G decided that it was appropriate for him to defile the music of the man who is probably the greatest jazz musician that has ever lived by spewing his lame-***, jive, pseudo bluesy, out-of-tune, noodling, wimped out, ****ed up playing all over one of the great Louis's tracks (even one of his lesser ones), he did something that I would not have imagined possible. He, in one move, through his unbelievably pretentious and calloused musical decision to embark on this most cynical of musical paths, **** all over the graves of all the musicians past and present who have risked their lives by going out there on the road for years and years developing their own music inspired by the standards of grace that Louis Armstrong brought to every single note he played over an amazing lifetime as a musician. By disrespecting Louis, his legacy and by default, everyone who has ever tried to do something positive with improvised music and what it can be, Kenny G has created a new low point in modern culture - something that we all should be totally embarrassed about - and afraid of. We ignore this, "let it slide", at our own peril.

His callous disregard for the larger issues of what this crass gesture implies is exacerbated by the fact that the only reason he possibly have for doing something this inherently wrong (on both human and musical terms) was for the record sales and the money it would bring.

Since that record came out - in protest, as insignificant as it may be, I encourage everyone to boycott Kenny G recordings, concerts and anything he is associated with. If asked about Kenny G, I will diss him and his music with the same passion that is in evidence in this little essay.

Normally, I feel that musicians all have a hard enough time, regardless of their level, just trying to play good and don't really benefit from public criticism, particularly from their fellow players. but, this is different.

There ARE some things that are sacred - and amongst any musician that has ever attempted to address jazz at even the most basic of levels, Louis Armstrong and his music is hallowed ground. To ignore this trespass is to agree that NOTHING any musician has attempted to do with their life in music has any intrinsic value - and I refuse to do that. (I am also amazed that there HASN'T already been an outcry against this among music critics - where ARE they on this?????!?!?!?!, magazines, etc.). Everything I said here is exactly the same as what I would say to Gorelick if I ever saw him in person. and if I ever DO see him anywhere, at any function - he WILL get a piece of my mind and (maybe a guitar wrapped around his head.)

[Parrot]

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On 5/25/2005 6:05:33 AM Erik Mandaville wrote:

I have also thrown away all LPs and CDs that have any remote connection to Pat Metheny, even if he was only featured as a guest artist (just between the two of us, who in their right mind would want him to contribute something to a selection of music, anyway!?)

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What an excellent start! Here in Two-Channel, the emphasis is on equipment. The "DVDS, Music and Movies" Forum is little-visited in comparison. But maybe there isn't enough weight given to the recorded material that begins our music reproduction chain.

After all, what good does it do anyone to perfectly recreate, in one's living room, a Pat Metheny performance when, in the final analysis, it's Pat Metheny.

Allan obviously agrees with me and is forever lecturing people on what is worthy of listening to, even if it is only in the jazz genre. You are hereby advised to throw out all your Kenny G records too; thanks for the tip, Allan.

The big problem with telling you what music you should or shouldn't listen to is that personal taste enters the picture. While it is objectively impossible to prove that The Hollies were better than The Beatles (except when The Beatles were sung by Helen Merrill), for example, subjectively one could say it. There is no accounting for taste.

[Allan Songer]

So very true, Paul. And I have IMPECCABLE taste! By paying close attention you might actually develop a rudimentary understanding and appreciation of the greatest cultural acheivement this country has given to the world! Alas, you seem to be a lost cause. . .

But I will continue in my attempts to teach you, as hope springs eternal here on the Klipsch 2-channel Forum!

[Parrot]

If only you could convince people to throw out their Diana Krall CDs, then there might be some progress in the world.

[ben.]

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On 5/25/2005 12:54:06 AM edwinr wrote:

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On 5/24/2005 6:33:29 PM ben. wrote:

I think you could just about knock me over with a feather, as I am in a state of shock and disbelief that the Parrot actually answered a direct question! Pretty lame answers, but perhaps that explains a lot of past posting habits...

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I think, Ben, you've missed the entire point of Parrot's philosophy. Is it not the work of a great tutor to pose questions that the ignorant masses should attempt to answer? Parrot's role is to guide us along the path of knowledge, not to spoon feed us every step of the way.

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C'mon, now! It's really not polite to be so sarcastic!

[Allan Songer]

Hey Ben, you want me to burn you a copy of my "Helen Merrill Sings Beatles" LP?

[ben.]

I thought that would go without saying!

How's "Revolution No. 9"?

[Allan Songer]

The best cut is "Mother Nature's Son" or maybe "Golden Slumbers." I'll let YOU decide and make SURE you post your review!

[TheEvan]

Allan, I was LOOKING for Metheney's missive on KennyG to post to this thread. it gets me every time. If Metheney never played a good note, he'd have my respect for this outburst alone.

But he has played some good notes. An awful lot of them.

[Erik Mandaville]

Paul:

I think we're beginning to make some headway here, and that is excellent! In reference to individual interests in types of music, you observed that, "...personal taste enters the picture." You also said that, "There is no accounting for taste." In my mind, those are fairly congruous in that they both allow for the possibility, however remote that might seem right now ()that not everyone will necessarily like the same music.

With the above in mind (and I know I'm treading on pretty fragile territory here...) do you think there is just a chance the same might be true with regard to some of the hardware (amps, maybe?)used to enlarge the sound of that music? I know, I know.....SET amps are just plain idiotic, but lets forget that for a minute and go back to the "personal taste" thing. I am proposing that such uninformed and inexperienced choices in equipment be allowed to reside in a state of ignorant bliss. Certainly the inverse of that equation must also be true, since after all, "...personal taste enters the picture," and "There is no accounting for taste." It is such an utterly simplistic concept, Paul. The issue of listening with headphones on weeknights while my wife watches TV is like telling someone they are an absolute fool because they have chosen an apple for dessert when there are perfectly good bananas sitting on a plate on the kitchen counter. I love the Klipschorns, and will never part with them -- nor the Lowthers and Heresies. They are used all weekend long, and Pat Metheny's 'Imaginary Day' sounds like the whole thing is taking place in our listening room. I know you think music shouldn't sound very real, but that's the impression I get, and I like it very much. It's MY "personal taste."

What do you think? Is this a possibility?

Erik

edit: Wait! I remember you, yourself used the food analogy, and how it's normal that not everyone should care for the same thing! I think you and I might concur on more than you know, Paul. But, the argument had to do with the number of calories, or something, right? Well, what about the idea that some might prefer a diet lower in calories than someone else? Is that possible, and does one person have the right to tell someone else they are delusional because they happen to like salads without the extra richness of dressing? The flavor of the ingredients themselves just might be enough, and for some Klipschorn users, a few watts maximum may be all that is needed or indeed wanted.

How does that sit with you?

[maxg]

4 pages - how on earth....???/

I am starting to sense touches of sarcasm and even, dare I say, irony in some of these posts.

Of course some people like SET amps Erik - those are almost certainly the ones that have suffered alien abduction too. Bonkers to a man. Morons who think choosing an audio system is related to the enjoyment they get out of it.

There is just no reasoning with people like this. Some of them eat celery too!

[neo33]

Who is Kenny G?

[edwinr]

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On 5/25/2005 11:52:06 AM ben. wrote:

C'mon, now! It's really not polite to be

so

sarcastic!

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Sorry, Ben.