D-MAN Posted March 23, 2005 Share Posted March 23, 2005 Bad form, old bean. DM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TBrennan Posted March 23, 2005 Share Posted March 23, 2005 Tony---I think that many designers pander to audiophile fashion and tell people what they want to hear. As in any business where the basic work was done long ago and current sales must be based on fashion and trends. Like clothes. The suit you buy this year isn't better than the one you bought five years ago, it's just more fashionable. Now fashion is cool, I've a taste for some myself, especially Italian shoes, but it doesn't make things better. Anyway think about it Tony. How could guys develop basic audio from the ground floor and not know competent wires sound different if they really do? How could they have developed complex mechanisms like loudspeakers, mics, amps and film sound and missed a simple mechanism like wire if wire really mattered? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seti Posted March 23, 2005 Share Posted March 23, 2005 ---------------- On 3/23/2005 7:21:14 PM sunnysal wrote: just to help move this along...there ARE people who design speakers, amps, etc., who swear that cables make a difference...let´s not get into which giants are really giants and which are mice, etc...two sides of this camp with giants on both sides...tony ---------------- Speaking of giants what did PWK have to say about speaker wire? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sfogg Posted March 23, 2005 Share Posted March 23, 2005 " who swear that cables make a difference.." Of course they do... just try listening to your sytem without them sometime! Beyond that..... Shawn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seti Posted March 23, 2005 Share Posted March 23, 2005 ---------------- On 3/23/2005 9:37:43 AM Daddy Dee wrote: One more thing... "The sky is blue".... there, I've said it. Anybody who wants to argue, post below. ---------------- Ok what if the sky isn't really blue what if blue isn't really blue. What if we have been taught too long to perceive another color as blue in its place and now blue is a sham. Ok now I am ready to comtemplate nirvana and dive into my own bellybutton or argue audio cables. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BEC Posted March 23, 2005 Share Posted March 23, 2005 ---------------- On 3/23/2005 8:26:25 PM seti wrote: ---------------- On 3/23/2005 7:21:14 PM sunnysal wrote: just to help move this along...there ARE people who design speakers, amps, etc., who swear that cables make a difference...let´s not get into which giants are really giants and which are mice, etc...two sides of this camp with giants on both sides...tony ---------------- Speaking of giants what did PWK have to say about speaker wire? ---------------- From the looks of the Klipsch speakers I have, I think he was fond of 16 AWG lampcord. Bob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sfogg Posted March 23, 2005 Share Posted March 23, 2005 "Speaking of giants what did PWK have to say about speaker wire? " I don't think I have this one but he wrote up something in: Klipsch, Paul, "Speaker Wire," Dope From Hope, Sept. 13, 1978. But given the zip cord his speakers were wired with and his little Yellow Button I'd make a bet for what the paper says.... Shawn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D-MAN Posted March 23, 2005 Share Posted March 23, 2005 PWK marketed a TT cartidge that used (GASP!) silver coated OFC wires, so was he pandering to audio fashion or being a clever marketeer? Or did it actually sound better? Where was his BS button when that was going on? What PWK said in the 40's or 50's about wire really has no bearing on things in 2005, he thought that the EV t-35 tweeter was good enough for consumers, too - is it? He owned Crown solid state amplification, too. I actually owned Crown gear of the same configuration at the same time as PWK and I therefore have an appreciation for the CRAPPY sound that came out, and YES at the time, I used any-old-wire from wherever I could get it. Did it sound good following his advice? NO, although it did not seem to matter back then as much due to the nature of the music and recording quality available that I was listening to at the time. But my tastes have changed and so has my system. Granted, there are alot of fishy wire and cable-related products out there that cost a fortune. I ain't arguing that. But I will argue the benefits of precise metalurgy and other considerations when it comes to quality signal transmission and the concerns of cabling. Do you think that if PWK was in his prime and was in charge in 2005, that he would be telling his customers to use zip cord? I doubt it. That was then and this is now... DM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sfogg Posted March 23, 2005 Share Posted March 23, 2005 BTW... finally found a link I was looking for regarding cable manufacturers and double blind testing... http://www.vxm.com/21R.64.html Shawn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duke Spinner Posted March 23, 2005 Share Posted March 23, 2005 SFog ... the Cable Gods are gonna get you for this ..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spkrdctr Posted March 24, 2005 Share Posted March 24, 2005 Guys, you can't A/B test audio! Unless the change is a major difference in sound, A/B testing is useless. It has to be blind testing, period end of story. Anything less and you are wasting time. Speakers, recievers etc are a major change. Speaker wire is not...... This issue has been tested, retested, tested and retested on and on...thousands of times over the last 30 years. Writers for the highest end audio magazines who extoll virtues of everything have all flunked the tests. They can't pick out any speaker wire, period in blind testing. Speakers have been picked out many times though. so buy Klipsch or don't buy at all! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sunnysal Posted March 24, 2005 Share Posted March 24, 2005 two comments; 1. the golden oldie giants may not have had access to the breadth of wire offerings we have now. Or may not have been interested in focussing thier efforts on testing wires, some science has advanced since those days. Sid Smith (someone I consider a giant of the golden oldies) commented that he always upgraded his wiring when asked to rebuild a 7C, 8B, 9 or 10B. 2. some modern giants do not chase fashion IMHO, John Curl just as one example is almost an anti-trend guy but swears wires make a difference, I will not list all the others who "believe" ... it seems chidlish. tony Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted March 24, 2005 Share Posted March 24, 2005 well after reading this whole thing i only have one question because my thoughts have already beeen stated by many others in this very thread? Is it: Sean? Shaun? Shawn? Saun? I am pretty sure I have seen it spelled every way shape and form here.... hehe j/k have a good day everyone! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TBrennan Posted March 24, 2005 Share Posted March 24, 2005 In Ireland it's Sean. My mother, from Lurgan in County Armagh, and her kinsman from there pronounce it shaan, with a flat a sound, not with the "awe" sound one often hears here. Maybe people from other parts of Ireland pronounce it differently than people in Armagh do. I reckon the most famous modern Sean is the actor Sean Connery, who though from Scotland is Irish by blood, many Irish having immigrated to Scotland to find work. One of my Irish uncles was from Scotland and everyone would kid him and call him Scotch. He'd get indignant and reply that if he were born in a barn that wouldn't make him a horse. Which reminds me of Dr. Johnson's definition of oats; a grain eaten in England by horses and in Scotland by people. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spkrdctr Posted March 24, 2005 Share Posted March 24, 2005 ---------------- On 3/24/2005 10:04:31 AM sunnysal wrote: two comments; 1. the golden oldie giants may not have had access to the breadth of wire offerings we have now. Or may not have been interested in focussing thier efforts on testing wires, some science has advanced since those days. Sid Smith (someone I consider a giant of the golden oldies) commented that he always upgraded his wiring when asked to rebuild a 7C, 8B, 9 or 10B. 2. some modern giants do not chase fashion IMHO, John Curl just as one example is almost an anti-trend guy but swears wires make a difference, I will not list all the others who "believe" ... it seems chidlish. tony ---------------- Tony, I am referring to the past 30 years to include up until yesterday, I do not mean 30 years ago. They have access to any and all wire types including stuff being tested that is not in production yet. They (testing groups) have focused on testing wires for the last 30 years. No one has ever been able to ever pick out wires in a double blind test, ever! The problem is that many new people come into and out of audio each year (or 5 years..) and think this is all "new". It has been talked about and tested for decades. The smart new guys who promote exotic wire today, are smart enough not to be tested! They do have knowledge of what wires can and can't so. So, they will not test. But then, you just buy their wire and test it anyway. There are so many variables in the design of a speaker that really do have major effects on the sound reproduction (voicing, etc)that the wire is the least significant in the whole chain. After saying this though, if someone wants to buy high dollar wire because they like the looks or feel, then they should go for it. There is nothing wrong with that. Like picking a cherry colored speaker versus basic black. The buyer can spend his money however he wants. Spend your money and enjoy! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sunnysal Posted March 25, 2005 Share Posted March 25, 2005 I understand spkrdctr, I was really just addressing John´s post about how the founding father´s of the audio industry did not take wire seriously. re: whether or not wire makes a difference I can only reiterate, there are two sides of this issue, with credible people on both sides. I suspect that many who test wire are on the "all wires are the same" camp...I have quoted tests where differences in wires are established... I always like to go back the the basics; ANY wire can be modeled as a circuit with resistance, capacitance and inductance. It amazes me that we can spend so much time arguing about different materials in capacitors and resisitors, etc. yet we throw away the same arguments in wires. I posted recently (for the fifth time at least) a really nice article written by nelson pass about modeling and measuring difference in wires: http://www.passlabs.com/downloads/articles/spkrcabl.pdf he does not claim that the MEASURABLE differences in wires is necessarily audbile but it does give a reader an idea about the basics of what we are discussing. (though many articles about electrical signal transmission are out there!). the issues of impedance matching between components, wave reflection in wires, quantum boundries, etc. all help cloud the issue... many people who opin here are completely ignorant of the science behind electrical transmission, I just want to make sure that all sides are fairly represented each time this topic is raised. BTW, I agree that compared to the complex eletrical components in our systems (amps, preamps, sources) the wires, if they contribute, contribute relatively little BUT in a world where capacitors sell for hundreds of dollars and many routinely swap MANY minor components in the signal path (or even out of it in the case of the PS) I believe it valid to consider the wires as a portion of the signal path to be addressed depending on your personal beliefs. I highly recommend reading the pass article to all who enjoy discussing this issue. warm regards, tony BTW I buy wires based on the advertising NOT the specs! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sfogg Posted March 25, 2005 Share Posted March 25, 2005 Tom, "In Ireland it's Sean. " True, and my grandmother was born in Belfast. Even more I was named after my Grandfather whoes name is John. John in Gaelic is more or less Sean. Yet, my name was spelled the more phonetical way of Shawn. Why? You might be suprised how many people don't know how to pronounce Sean. Say Sean phonetically then say my last name. My mother, correctly, thought I'd hear enough weather/explorer jokes during my life without adding to it. Shawn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jacksonbart Posted March 25, 2005 Share Posted March 25, 2005 Hubba Hubba Why would someone ruin a perfectly nice picture by putting a cable in the way? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sputnik Posted March 25, 2005 Share Posted March 25, 2005 ---------------- On 3/25/2005 4:26:59 PM jacksonbart wrote: Hubba Hubba Why would someone ruin a perfectly nice picture by putting a cable in the way? ---------------- I think the cable is symbolic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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