What Black laquer paint would you use to refinish cabinets?

[jwc]

I have started a lot of threads recently....so for those steaming right now...I'll apologize in advance.

I just refinished some Corns with Black Acrylic latex with a foam roller and a foam brush. Cheap project and they look pretty good. However, I was slam dunked in the thread where I mentioned this. I deserved it.

So here is my deal. I am still gonna use a foam roller and a foam brush. Sorry, not gonna change. I will do some sanding if needed.

SO THE QUESTION: WHAT BLACK PAINT (LAQUER) AND PRIMER WOULD YOU USE? I WANT A "GLOSS FINISH"; NOT PIANO BLACK.

Thanks

jc

[WMcD]

There may be a problem in nomenclature. Some of what you're writing is very inconsistent with what is available.

When you write "lacquer", that is a specific type of chemistry and solvent. Actually, nail polish is the only commercial pigmented brush-on lacquer which I know of. Even if there is something in bigger bottles, the lacquer solvent is murder on foam brushes and would probably disolve them in 30 seconds. So perhaps you're just talking "paint" in general.

The only large scale brush-on lacquer that I know of is Deft. It only comes in clear, from what I see on the web. I thought they made some piano black but evidently that is not the case.

If you really want black lacquer for home use I only know of Krylon spray-on. You can see it on their website. Funny, I'd have thought that the EPA would have put the kabosh on spray lacquer. It puts a lot of organic solvents in the air.

Again with the nomeclature. Classic piano finish is quite glossy. Some of the newer trends are satin. It is tough to tell what you are aiming for.

All that aside, there are many polyeurethane (sp) brush on (maybe roll-on) paints at HD. I expect the stuff at boat shops is particularly tough and glossy.

I think you're on the right track. All the books say that the only way to get a smooth top coat is very meticulous attention to the wood. Then meticulous attention to the primer, or first coat. And the second, and the third.

Others here have more experience and can tell you better. However, I'd think that getting a smooth glossy black finish on a box (corners being a problem) with a roller is a very tall order no matter what you use.

Tell us how it works out. We all can get educated!

Gil

[texican58]

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On 4/8/2005 9:38:11 PM jwcullison wrote:

I have started a lot of threads recently....so for those steaming right now...I'll apologize in advance.

I just refinished some Corns with Black Acrylic latex with a foam roller and a foam brush. Cheap project and they look pretty good. However, I was slam dunked in the thread where I mentioned this. I deserved it.

So here is my deal. I am still gonna use a foam roller and a foam brush. Sorry, not gonna change. I will do some sanding if needed.

SO THE QUESTION: WHAT BLACK PAINT (LAQUER) AND PRIMER WOULD YOU USE? I WANT A "GLOSS FINISH"; NOT PIANO BLACK.

Thanks

jc

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JC,

I'm in the midst of doing the same thing (Cornwall project) and now some La Scalas. I've had great difficulty using fillers to prepare my cabinets for sanding. Apparently, if the base coat or primer coat is an oil-based paint, bondo won't stick and harden. It simply clumps together when trying to sand it. My experience (so far) has been to completely sand the whole cabinet after scraping and sanding all bondo and primer off. If you've messed up by using an oil-based primer (like me), use a stripper and scraper and get that crap off of the cabinet. Then, use some bondo (Auto-parts store ~ $5) and fill in the gouges/cracks/corners. ONce dried, sand it smooth, and then prime it with the right paint. I've decided that I want to go with a 'piano' lacquer gloss finish. The only luck that I've had so far is to go to an Auto-paint store to buy it. It will run you around $40/quart, but you'll need the right painting equipment to apply it. If you're stuck on rolling you're paint, you might be best served going with later primers and finishes (water-based).

Personally, I'm going for a mirror shine on mine and I already have the equipment (paint guns/compressors/driers) to spray mine.

Best of luck and keep us posted....hope this helped a little?

Mitch

[Marvel]

I have posted this before, but check out this guitar builders site, Luthier's Mercantile International. The top right of the home page has a water based finish that can be simply stunning. The product is KTM-9 and you can brush or spray. You can use water or alchohol based dyes to get the color you want. It is made by Grafted Coatings, Inc, but for purchases under one gallon you can only get it from LMI.

LMI site

[jwc]

Thanks for the tips guys.

Sorry, I should have not put the Lacquer in parenthesis. I should not put it there at all. Yes, I want to put it on with a roller. That guitar site is interesting. I basically want black paint mwith a gloss.

I may just do what I did last time. I swear, I feel just like the last time I did this. Can't decide on the finishing touches.

[khorn58]

Go to a pro paint store and ask for a mohair fine finsh roller its also lint free and as s.mooth or smoother than foam

[colterphoto1]

JW, check one of your first 'paint' threads. I posted re a Porter oil-based paint that we use for built in cabinetry and for painting kitchen cabinets. Good smooth very hard finish. It's called Glip-tek.

You can roll or brush it, the marks level out very nicely as this paint takes a long time for it's final cure (about 30 days). You can recoat within a day though.

If you want good finished, you've got to get away from Latex and those foam brushes.

Michael

[jwc]

Michael,

Yes, I made note of that on the previous thread.

So, I would use a foam roller or a bristle paint brush?

What primer before the paint?

Any sanding in between?

You know, the only other thread I could find that dealt with non spray painting was this one:

http://forums.klipsch.com/idealbb/view.asp?topicID=53864&forumID=71&catID=19&search=1&searchstring=&sessionID={928B014A-3A76-480B-9E79-2F1793C46D3A}

In fact, you mentioned that same paint on that thread. I almost bumped that thread. Jlindgren (who started the thread) had an interesting idea of thinning the paint, brushing it on, then wiping it off. I was considering trying this.

However, if you could give me tips on the way you do it, I will do it your way.

It will be late next week before I will start this. Have a few odds and ends to complete before painting.

jc

[colterphoto1]

Mitch,

With the porter oil paint, believe it or not, use a latex wood primer. The primer will 'raise' the grain portion of the wood a bit, then sand it back down 220 grit or so. Then apply the Glip-tek (sp) with a high-quality black china bristle brush. Trust me. This paint is great, it will 'self-level' down to a very smooth finish if you brush it on right. Ask the guys at the paint store. This is a very hard, high quality paint for cabinetry and interior wood trim.

I used to use this technique for kitchen cabinets and all kinds of built in plywood and wood product 'built-ins' in verys expensive homes. It looks great. I always used the eggshell finish, but think they have others.

Now, about those 'flutes' ?!??!?

Michael

[Marvel]

The painter at the college where I work has used an interesting technique. When he uses poly, by the time he does his third coat he uses the roller as a squeegee. Holds the roller and slides it over the surface. He gets an incredibly smooth surface finish. I suppose you could do this with any oil based paint.

Marvel

[dbflash]

Search on BB member Q-Man or send him an email.

Danny

[michael hurd]

If you are looking for a deep black high gloss finish, lacquers are a complete waste of time. Also, lacquer thinner and foam don't really work too well together, as noted by Gil.

If you are serious about getting a good quality finish, you are going to have to sand a lot. Proper prep to start will cut the amount of time by quite a bit.

Start with blocking the entire cabinet area to be refinished with P180 grit paper, at an angle to the grain. ( approx 30 degrees ) Use a long sanding board ( available at your local autobody supply house ).

Primers - the primer used will affect the durability and prevent the solvents from penetrating into the substrate, and losing gloss. Don't skimp here. A urethane 2 component primer surfacer, with a fairly long open time ( time before product thickens and becomes unusable ) will roll on fairly smooth with a poly roller. You will however have to sand flat between coats by hand with a block.

Again, for the first few coats, use P180 grit paper on the long block. After priming for the third time, I would switch to P320 grit paper for the final sand. You may have to buy another block to use 1/2 sheet of sandpaper. ( 8 1/2" x 11" size )

Go and buy an automotive Alkyd enamel, with the amount of reducer that you will need. BASF's R-M brand markets their Limco 1-2-3-4 economy refinish system, with four available products ( Limco 1 = alkyd enamel, Limco 2 = acrylic enamel, Limco 3 = urethane Limco 4 = basecoat )

What you want is Limco 1 alkyd, so you do not have to buy a hardner to go with the paint. In their Quick Mix factory packaged containers, they have a deep black, Q 900, if I recall correctly. The supply house has to add the resin system to the premixed pigments to create an alkyd enamel, then place the can on the mixer. There is an optional hardner, but since it contains polyisocyanates ( read: bad for your health ), I would hesitate to recommend it.

If the supply house sells other brand refinish products, talk to them about your needs and see if they can recommend certain products.

If you have gotten to this part, now reduce the enamel with the reducer, then roll on one coat on each speaker. After allowing the solvents to evaporate and the enamel to tack up, roll on a second coat.

Let dry for at least 36 hours, before block sanding with P320. ( premature sanding will give you sand scratch swelling ) If you sand it flat too early, solvents will continue to evaporate, leaving deep scratches.

Roll on another 2 coats, only this time after the drying period, start wet sanding with P600, then work up to P1000, and finally P1500. Hand or machine compound with a coarse cut compound, then finally finish with a fine cut compound.

Take two advil's and swear off refinishing speakers for life. If your arms aren't falling off by the time you are done, then count yourself lucky. This should take you the better part of two weeks in the evenings, assuming you work days.

[michael hurd]

As far as pricing, Limco 1 alkyd is very inexpensive at $ Cdn. 26 a quart, or about $ 21 Usd. a quart. Reducer LR-12 ( medium ) will set you back about $ Cdn. 8 a quart. ( $ 6.50 Usd. )

As far as primers go, I would recommend Evercoat's Uro-fill Urethane 2 component primer, as it has a long open time, so that you can roll a few coats of the activated material on, before the product becomes unuseable.

[jwc]

Thanks m.hurd

This is the kind of instructions I was looking for.

I followed all of that pretty well through the sanding and primer bit. I got a little confused after that. I think I got that I would need to apply the enamel a few times and sand. At the end sand to a fine grit. I don't mean to sound silly but these "reducers, compounds, hardeners" and such aren't part of my vocab.

I am not afraid of my arms falling off. In fact this makes the project more fun for me.

jc

[colterphoto1]

He's talking about an 'epoxy' type paint that has at least two parts to make it up. You combine the parts in a strict ratio, then paint it on. It creates a very hard, industrial finish.

The Porter Glyptex I'm pointing you towards is a single part, very durable oil-based enamel that is very easy to work with. Probably not the hardness of the epoxy paints, but we're not painting a porch floor here either. How durable/shiny does the surface need to be? (no offense to Michael H's advice)

Michael

[jwc]

Hey Michael,

I tried to get you on your cell last night. I will try again.

I don't need a mirror finish. I'm not trying to set any records here either. I just want a black finish with some shine/gloss that doesn't show paint marks.

Also, Not sure what you ment by local Porter store.

jc

[joessportster]

the epoxy finishes will dry much faster than the oil base also, and be aware that oil base paints are pretty picky with regards to humidity, they can take days to dry to the touch if used in high humidity, (michael did you ever come across this problem) i had a friend just last year insist on using oil based paint on an exterior door and the thing was still wet to the touch after a week, anyone selling oil based paint should be able to give you the manufacturer specks in regards to temp and humidity while using the paints

[colterphoto1]

Porter Paints, it's a paint manufacturer that has their own stores. Arent' there any where you live? Check website or yellow pages. They service mostly house painters and specialty painters, very professional staff, at least around here. Just tell em what you're trying to do , mention Glyptek, and you should be good to go.

Michael

[joessportster]

porter paint is an awsome product top of the line if you can find it i used to live in ky and that was all i would use bet they arent out here in maryland. Joe

[colterphoto1]

Heres's the Porter Paint Stores locator

http://www.porterpaints.com/locator/index.html

Got stores in most major cities in Georgia JW!

Also Maryland, Annapolis, Baltimore, Oakland, and Stevensville.

They're good professional people with great products.

Michael