sberger Posted April 15, 2005 Author Share Posted April 15, 2005 ahh, you don't like lobster. well that explains it... nah, dean, everything ya said is cool. i'm an old rocker myself, but execpet when im alone, which isn't often, i gotta listen at very moderate levels. y'know, for all i know, your're right. its just that i've never had speakers that would allow for a se amp, so im excited about trying it, since i've had such great results with my tube preamp. and there a lot of good guys on the decware forum who also like klipsch speakers. so we'll give it a shot(and maybe have one or 3 while listening) and see what happens. thanks for your feedback. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erik Mandaville Posted April 15, 2005 Share Posted April 15, 2005 Wait until you hear for yourself. I think it's inappropriate to bash at an amp that hasn't even been personally auditioned -- REGARDLESS of past experiences SOME have had with the company in question. There is a retrun policy that can be taken advantage of, which is more than some companies will do. Who was it who used to call Klipschorns "earbleeders" in his enthusiastic RF-7 days? Erik! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sberger Posted April 15, 2005 Author Share Posted April 15, 2005 thanks erik. my thoughts exactly. oh yeah... i love lobster. course, now that i live out in frisco, can't get a decent version like i used to indulge in growing up in boston. course, some things are never as you remember them anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edwinr Posted April 16, 2005 Share Posted April 16, 2005 ---------------- On 4/15/2005 4:02:00 PM sberger wrote: dean, just so i'm clear are you against all low power tube amps? ---------------- I don't think anyone is against low powered amps per se. It's just that many of these specials have an advertised power rating much higher than the reality. The 6 watts you were quoting would probably be, as Dean said, around 1/2 a watt of usable power before falling into double figure distortion. If you want to listen to music with it's micro and macro dynamics accurately reproduced, you will need, even with the Klipschorn, around 20 to 30 watts. Anything less is still okay in smaller rooms and at listening levels well below 90db for the peaks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
krustyoldsarge Posted April 16, 2005 Share Posted April 16, 2005 A digital amp setup deserves your audition and consideration. Lots of threads in the forum on the subject. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
codhead Posted April 16, 2005 Share Posted April 16, 2005 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted April 16, 2005 Share Posted April 16, 2005 LOL, well, you got me there Erik. I think the RF-7 is certainly more forgiving as to what sourced and driven with. I don't think that's the case with Heritage, which seems to be very sensitive in this regard. Get just one thing wrong, and they WILL pin the ears back. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sberger Posted April 16, 2005 Author Share Posted April 16, 2005 ---------------- I don't think anyone is against low powered amps per se. It's just that many of these specials have an advertised power rating much higher than the reality. The 6 watts you were quoting would probably be, as Dean said, around 1/2 a watt of usable power before falling into double figure distortion. If you want to listen to music with it's micro and macro dynamics accurately reproduced, you will need, even with the Klipschorn, around 20 to 30 watts. Anything less is still okay in smaller rooms and at listening levels well below 90db for the peaks. ---------------- you may be right. and i do have a small room and as i've said previously, usually need to listen at lower levels. i find it interesting though how many folks speak of se amps so favorably. only one way to see, er, hear for myself, huh? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike stehr Posted April 16, 2005 Share Posted April 16, 2005 "i find it interesting though how many folks speak of se amps so favorably. only one way to see, er, hear for myself, huh?" Yup. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jt1stcav Posted April 16, 2005 Share Posted April 16, 2005 I'm not complaining (see my profile)...use an 8 WPC SET amp with both 98.5dB Cornwalls and now with my 93dB Athena Technologies Audition Series AS-F2 towers. Plenty loud for my small room up to 100dB (clipping occurs over 107dB). Personally I think the Heresys will do just fine with levels below 90dB once you know their limits and don't overdo it. Will you be using a subwoofer for the low frequencies? Just my opinion, natch... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sberger Posted April 16, 2005 Author Share Posted April 16, 2005 ---------------- On 4/16/2005 2:24:52 PM jt1stcav wrote: I'm not complaining (see my profile)...use an 8 WPC SET amp with both 98.5dB Cornwalls and now with my 93dB Athena Technologies Audition Series AS-F2 towers. Plenty loud for my small room up to 100dB (clipping occurs over 107dB). Personally I think the Heresys will do just fine with levels below 90dB once you know their limits and don't overdo it. Will you be using a subwoofer for the low frequencies? Just my opinion, natch... ---------------- hi, won't be using a sub. my bass requirements are pretty minimal, meaning as long as it's realistic, and natural, i'm fine with it. i appreciate your comments. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erik Mandaville Posted April 17, 2005 Share Posted April 17, 2005 sberger: I think you will find 6 watts more than adequate. Years ago, when I started to get very interested in low power tube amplifiers and horn speakers, some of the strongest encouragement I got was from reading an article written by a person who built a pair of Welborne Labs Moondog 2A3 monoblocks and used them with Heresies. I think the match can be very good. As I mentioned, I also purchased the same amps (in kit form), and used them with our single-driver Lowther speakers. Lowthers do not use crossovers, and STILL provide some of the very best midrange of any speaker we have, including the Klipschorns. However, in terms of the load impedance they present to amplifiers, Lowthers are probably far more hyperactive than a Heresy would be with the same amp. There are also forum members here that use and truly enjoy amplifiers with max. outputs of only approximately 1.5 watts. That is the truth! I built three of them myself before sending them to their new owners, but had the chance to listen to them during testing. With Klipsch Heritage speakers in general, and Klipschorns in particular, those amplifiers were able to clearly produce very loud volume levels in our room without sounding distorted. I never tried pushing them into the clipping range, because I normally listen at much lower levels -- which is one of the reasons we have always liked Klipsch speakers. I'm sorry, but one of the reasons I involved myself in this thread had to with the fact that I think it's out of place for judgement to passed on a component that has never been seen nor heard. You mentioned that you had made a recent purchase of a new tube amplifier, and some of the first feedback you received couldn't have been more negative. I think that's very unfortunate, but also think you actually chose wisely because of the fact that you will be able to return the component if you find you don't like it. But don't even think about that now!!! I didn't know Steve D. had the product available, and I am curious about it. I think it's a nice looking amplifier! My wife talked with him on the phone some years ago when we were pondering a purchase, and said that he was nothing but very helpful and polite. I have also shared email with him, and appreciated his willingness to share information and answer questions. Let us know how it goes! Erik edit: sberger, I took for granted that you are familiar with Welborne Labs Moondog 2A3 amplifiers. That may not be the case, so let you share a little info. about them: the 2A3 refers to the type of output tube they use. It is a lower power triode (meaning the tube has three elements inside) that's capable of a little over 3 watts or so in a single-ended amplifier. They are monoblock amps, so of course two are needed for stereo reproduction. Welborne Labs does not offer the Moondog anymore, which have been replaced by the DRD 45 and 300B amp kits. The 45 and 300B are also triodes like the 2A3, although the the 45 is about half as powerful as the 2A3, where the 300B is capable of roughly twice the output of a 2A3 -- give or take a watt or two. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sberger Posted April 17, 2005 Author Share Posted April 17, 2005 erik, thanks very much for the input. very encouraging! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike stehr Posted April 17, 2005 Share Posted April 17, 2005 The 45 and strapped triode 6BQ5 are pretty close on power output. But the 45 will sound larger with a little more grunt. If you want natural and realistic a 2A3 amp does rather well at that task. (Within it's working parameters.) That Decware Taboo(I would assume)is a single-ended pentode connected amplifier using 6BQ5/EL-84 output tubes. The amp more than likely has a little feedback with a resistor and compenstion cap to smooth out overall response. You'll get more power out of a pentode connected 6BQ5 over the triode strapped Zen. I can bet that 6 watt figure is at clipping, however. Nonetheless, the Taboo probably sounds more refined and balanced I can guess, IME with 6BQ5/EL-84 triode-strapped and pentode connected circuits. These topologies are also some of the cheapest tube audio circuits man can build...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
codhead Posted April 17, 2005 Share Posted April 17, 2005 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erik Mandaville Posted April 17, 2005 Share Posted April 17, 2005 Absolutely agree! I just switched out the Teac for the Horus 2A3 amps, and was able to get extremely loud and clear sound without a hint of clipping. Actually, with the KR Enterprise 2A3s, the Horus amps are not unlike the Teac -- very clean and articulate, though with maybe a slightly less tight low-end response. Right now I'm using the Teac with the Lowthers (sides) and borrowed La Scala (center) channel, with all three rolled off at 120 Hz with the Lexicon. ...the La Scala with an Altec midrange, I might add -- what a marvelous midrange horn. I don't know -- this is sounding so nice I might leave it as is for awhile! Erik Sberger: What was the specific Decware you got? was it that Taboo? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sberger Posted April 17, 2005 Author Share Posted April 17, 2005 ---------------- On 4/17/2005 2:13:37 PM Erik Mandaville wrote: Sberger: What was the specific Decware you got? was it that Taboo? ---------------- yup. by the way, here's a link from the decware sight, in case some haven't seen it. http://www.decware.com/newsite/TABOO.htm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted April 17, 2005 Share Posted April 17, 2005 I'm listening to Pink Floyd Live...on my 3 watt amp and Heresys as I'm writing this. I just missed a phone call, as I did not hear it ring from 6 feet away... You obviously have hearing damage. You might want to get that checked. I'm kind of amazed by some of the comments in this thread. To some, not even an Audio Note Ongaku has what it takes to properly drive Klipschorns. To me, this is just silly. I love $100,000 SET amplifiers. Does it have more than 20 parts? So let's see... my amp and speakers are not compatable... I attached the Heresy impedance curve. Go to Google and type in "benign impedance curve". You can also shoot the plot to manufacturers of SET amps and ask if a speaker with that curve is acceptable to run with their amp. "...I don't care about accurate music reproduction..." I didn't say that. "...my system is not capable of reproducing details in the music..." I didn't say that. "...and my 3 watts is probably only 1/4 of 1 watt." Dynamic peaks are typically 6db to 20db higher than steady state. You do the math, I've already done my math homework for the day. SET amps have a soft clipping characteristic, but it's still clipping, and constitutes distortion. And no one is really "against" low-powered amps. Can you believe this? Hard to believe isn't it? I don't give a hoot what you use. It's your system. "Heh-heh, heh-heh. Hey, Beavis - check out that dork with the SET amp. Heh-heh, heh-heh." "Yeah, he can't listen to Slayer at, uh, 110dB." Well, you can't. http://www.crownaudio.com/apps_htm/designtools/elect-pwr-req.htm "In the calculators Peak Headroom field, enter 6 dB for rock music that is compressed or limited, or enter 20 to 25 dB for uncompressed live music. If you can live with some short-term clipping which may be inaudible, enter 10 to 15 dB." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted April 17, 2005 Share Posted April 17, 2005 ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
codhead Posted April 17, 2005 Share Posted April 17, 2005 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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