tubes or ss?

[codhead]

[codhead]

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On 4/18/2005 10:06:40 PM tillmbil wrote:

Very interesting read. Codhead, I really like your style in that you never lost control and for that reason this thread has been very civil.

Set amps--just haven't bit on those yet. It does concern me when some of you say ignore the facts, figures and information from articles like those presented and go with your ears. Then we will turn around and say buy an amp because it has good specs. It seems the only amps that should be bought with a few parts with poor specs are set amps. Just an outsider's view.

I can tell you that the Yamaha M80's you mention at 90dbs have way more bass slam and over all sound quality than my newer 85wpc Yammie...go figure.

I prefer tubes to SS, and more watts to less...set amps aside. My MC240 sounded better than my St70, and my VRD's sound better than the MC240. As noted by all listeners/visitors. The visitors did have claim to musical knowledge,,,one Florida Orchestra Musician...one band member...and one wannabe band member. friends of course.

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Well, this one was all on style - Dean's got a pretty good handle on the substance side of things. He's probably better looking, so he'd always win if we were lawyers.

If SET amps were almost any other product, they'd be giving them away. Not exactly impressive from the spec side, but somehow they manage to sound pretty good despite themselves.

My M80's are nearing retirement age (in SS amp years). Think they were about the end of the line for the really well built Yamaha gear. They're currently in semi-retirement, waiting for an especially noisy neighbor to call them back to duty.

IMHO, the MC240 is about as classy as a tube amp gets. I've seen a couple of places that do beautiful restorations. That's the kind of industrial art that I could just stare at for hours on end. I like the new 275, but I can't understand why they put stickers on the transformer covers, and those big funny-looking rings around the output tube sockets.

[edwinr]

This debate is an interesting one and raises some important issues when listening to the music of our choice. I've often wondered what the attraction is with low wattage SET amps. I started considering this when NEO's thread, To SET or Not To SET, was a hot topic last year.

Since then I've had the pleasure of listening to a select number of SET amplifiers, a couple on my own Klipschorns. I admit there is an attraction to the SET sound. In my mind I'm satisfied as to the reason why. Low powered SET amps tend to sacrifice the frequency extremes and offer a superbly transparent window into the important midrange.

This is not all that SET amplifiers do. They also appear to compress the signal somewhat. I believe they do this because they are limited in outright power, and as a result the dynamic range of the music being reproduced is limited. They sound somewhat louder subjectively, because the signal is compressed.

This is not intended to be a criticism of SET. The very characteristics I have identified, combine to present a sound that is highly palatable to many people.

EDIT: BTW, I forgot to mention that while I was quite entranced listening to SET, on switching back to solid state and my 30 watt p/c tube amplifiers, I noticed the music was reproduced with substantially better dynamics. Again this is not a criticism of SET. Subjectively, at given loudness levels, I found I preferred to listen to certain types of music with a SET amplifier.

[r.cherry]

while i don't claim to now much, i do hate it when i hear that voice with the scottish accent saying "I'm given her all she's got captain, any more and she's gonna blow".

I tend to over-build so i would lean towards MORE POWER. you can always turn it down! can you turn it up becomes the question .

[seti]

How much power do you really need?

I have been very supprised at the performance of my SET amps. My friends laughed when I told them my amps were 8wpc after they listened to them they thought I was pulling their legs and I had to show them the specs. Now I am curious at what volume I regularly listen hmm guess I need to got to RadioShack. What I love about my SET is the soundstage it's just perfect for me. The fact that i can sit down close my eyes and be able to hear each instrument clearly and at different places in the soundstage is just remarkable to me. Most reviews I have read about SET the downfall is the bass but with my Belles I have been happy with that as well. I still want some Quad II push pull amps for mostly nostalgic reasons as it was the first tube gear I ever heard and made me want to have tube gear.

[ben.]

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On 4/18/2005 9:59:10 PM mdeneen wrote:

It took me a long time to figure this out, but if you like to kick back with a glass of wine and goofy slippers -- then SET is definitely your kind of amp. If you drink beer -- go the push-pull route.

=============

That's a riot. If you had said that three years ago, just imagine all the arguments that could have been avoided. And where do the Cognac drinkers fit in?

-mdeneen

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I'm not sure, but Busta says it'd better bump!

[codhead]

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On 4/19/2005 2:55:01 AM edwinr wrote:

This is not all that SET amplifiers do. They also appear to compress the signal somewhat. I believe they do this because they are limited in outright power, and as a result the dynamic range of the music being reproduced is limited. They sound somewhat louder subjectively, because the signal is compressed.

This is not intended to be a criticism of SET. The very characteristics I have identified, combine to present a sound that is highly palatable to many people.

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I can remember listening to my folk's big tube console as a kid. The early FM stations seemed to have a lot more range and clarity, but music on a strong AM station just had a kind of relaxing smoothness to it. While SET amps can hardly be compared to AM radio, I find they do have a very smooth, listenable presentation.

I've found SETs to be more enjoyable on vocals from artists which tend to sound a little raspy to begin with, but probably not as true to their original sound.

A SET also seems to take the edge off of some music (like a sax solo, or loud brass instruments), but IMHO it can also add too much of a good thing to lower piano registers and acoustic bass.

[NOSValves]

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On 4/19/2005 2:55:01 AM edwinr wrote:

This debate is an interesting one and raises some important issues when listening to the music of our choice. I've often wondered what the attraction is with low wattage SET amps. I started considering this when NEO's thread, To SET or Not To SET, was a hot topic last year.

Since then I've had the pleasure of listening to a select number of SET amplifiers, a couple on my own Klipschorns. I admit there is an attraction to the SET sound. In my mind I'm satisfied as to the reason why. Low powered SET amps tend to sacrifice the frequency extremes and offer a superbly transparent window into the important midrange.

This is not all that SET amplifiers do. They also appear to compress the signal somewhat. I believe they do this because they are limited in outright power, and as a result the dynamic range of the music being reproduced is limited. They sound somewhat louder subjectively, because the signal is compressed.

This is not intended to be a criticism of SET. The very characteristics I have identified, combine to present a sound that is highly palatable to many people.

EDIT: BTW, I forgot to mention that while I was quite entranced listening to SET, on switching back to solid state and my 30 watt p/c tube amplifiers, I noticed the music was reproduced with substantially better dynamics. Again this is not a criticism of SET. Subjectively, at given loudness levels, I found I preferred to listen to certain types of music with a SET amplifier.

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Excellent post and dead on the money! You figured this all out just from listening?

Craig

[Erik Mandaville]

I agree it can be very music-dependent.

Erik

[mike stehr]

"but if you like to kick back with a glass of wine and goofy slippers -- then SET is definitely your kind of amp. If you drink beer -- go the push-pull route."

Dean,

I don't drink, and I don't wear goofy slippers, and I listen to Slayer on a SET amp.

[ben.]

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On 4/19/2005 7:51:12 PM mike stehr wrote:

"but if you like to kick back with a glass of wine and goofy slippers -- then SET is definitely your kind of amp. If you drink beer -- go the push-pull route."

Dean,

I don't drink, and I don't wear goofy slippers, and I listen to Slayer on a SET amp.

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Yeah, but with Rudolf the Red-Nosed Reindeer wallpaper, how credible can you be?

[steve]

I must chime in here, and say that I am pretty happy with my Assemblage 300B SET power amp..it is only 8 watts a side, but it sounds better (to me) than any SS amp I've had in my system. Granted, Dean and Craig are far more knowledgable in electronics than I am, and their measurements are probably pretty accurate. I listen to my music at about 80-90db steady, peaks at about 85-98db and it sure sounds good to me! That music includes everything from folk, to country rock, to rock and roll, to headbanger music! I must admit I ordered the decware Zen amp a few years back to test drive it, and although Steve D was a nice guy, the amp was promptly returned, as it couldn't keep up above 80db!

So go with what you like..

I'm pretty happy with what I have,..but I am always open to trying something new! (well, except the Khorns..I think I'm gonna keep them..after 20+ years!)

Steve

[dragonfyr]

Haven't you guys settled this debate YET?

[dragonfyr]

Which particular types of "goofy slippers" seem to work best? ....The monster ones that growl when you walk, or the big fuzzy bunny slippers?

[edwinr]

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On 4/19/2005 7:04:53 PM NOSValves wrote:

Excellent post and dead on the money! You figured this all out just from listening?

Craig

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Thanks, Craig. That's very kind of you. Yes, just from listening. And what a fun experience it was too!

[edwinr]

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On 4/20/2005 2:33:24 AM dragonfyr wrote:

Which particular types of "goofy slippers" seem to work best? ....The monster ones that growl when you walk, or the big fuzzy bunny slippers?

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The ones that purrrrrrr..................

[mike stehr]

"Yeah, but with Rudolf the Red-Nosed Reindeer wallpaper, how credible can you be?"

But without Rudolph's blessing, where would I get the Magic?

[ben.]

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On 4/20/2005 1:26:43 PM mike stehr wrote:

"Yeah, but with Rudolf the Red-Nosed Reindeer wallpaper, how credible can you be?"

But without Rudolph's blessing, where would I get the Magic?

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Hmmm, maybe that's what we're all missing. Imagine the WAF negotiations surrounding that upgrade!

[mike stehr]

Heh

I finally scored a mate for my Realistic/Utah "Americana" 12". Dirt cheap from eBay.....

I've used the one I have in my homemade cabinets, it sounds rather good for a good ol' cheap vintage speaker.

[ben.]

Cool. Looks just like my Celestas, but with a whizzer added. Are they funky from behind like the Celesta?

I need to get those Celestas in my Karlsons now that it's warmed up and I can stand to be out in the garage.