maxg Posted April 15, 2005 Share Posted April 15, 2005 Ah the fabled law of diminishing returns. The more you spend the lower the return for your money. But, return there is - in spades - it is just up to you to decide whether or not you want to hear it. Yes - there is plenty of crap vinyl out there. Some of it we listen to because there is nothing else (although the letters C and D spring to mind as alternatives for those), but, there is plenty of vinyl out there storing rather more information than your Project 9 arm (the actual arm on the Music Hall) is capable of reading - with any cartridge and with any upgrade! (I say this as a past owner of an RPM 4 (the Project version) with the better "bearinged" arm and clearaudio sixstream cabling running a Shelter 901). Yes - for the money the Project arm is EXCELLENT VALUE. It may well compete with arms 2 or 3 times the cost - but it is not the end of the science. I wont go into my own table but suffice to say it is something of an upgrade from the Project and cost rather more. The arm is a linear tracking arm (eliminating much, if not all, of the distortion a normal arm gets from the inner grooves) - and the sound is simply breathtaking at times - even on my "limited" vinyl collection. Is it worth the money? For 99.9% of the population - no. But I kinda think of myself as an Audiophile. That means that I strive to get the BEST sound POSSIBLE from my system for the money I have to spend - and I mean spend - to the maximum I can justify. Vinyl is still, at its best, the highest fidelity sound we can get in the home after all these years. This does not apply to all records - just as all CD's are not created equal. If you want to get the best possible sound you can - then investing in your vinyl playback system is not a bad place to look, once you got your speakers and amplification in place. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ben. Posted April 15, 2005 Share Posted April 15, 2005 Well, a lot to respond to, dragonfyr, and I only really addressed what I took serious issue with. This quote is what moved me to respond: ---------------- On 4/13/2005 4:47:20 PM dragonfyr wrote: If someone wants to debate the difference between >$1000 turntables, be my guest. I have personally listened to many of them. I suspect that with enough beer, margaritas, &/or other mood altering 'stuff' (funny how that advanced universal technical term comes in so handy!), I might be able to hear the differences. (I know that one time , after enough of the aforementioned 'stuff', I was able to hear the differnces in how the electrons all held hands and all went down wire, but that was quite a while ago when I had more brain cells then sense, but unfortunately I haven't been able to reproduce it.) ---------------- My collection is quite varied in both content and physical quality. To posit that money spent on a quality table is wasted if all the pressings in your collection aren't top-notch is foolish. Though my own upgrade path leapfrogged over the $500-600 price point, (From original AR to VPI Scout), I fail to agree with your assement of best price/performance. Again, not having heard your player, this is more than a bit conjecture. My point? The marginal pressings that I own and enjoy sound much better on the Scout than on my Dual or AR. DO they reveal their flaws? Sure, but they also reveal the music as well. Something tells me that folks who enjoy what Klipsch speakers bring to the table are not afraid of revealing systems. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dragonfyr Posted April 15, 2005 Share Posted April 15, 2005 And my point is that you don't have to own a pair of Krell monoblock FPB650Ms at $12,500 apiece to have a nice sounding system that achieves 95% of what you accomplish with those units! But as I have said repeatedly, if you have the money and those priorities, be my guest! The original topic, which seems to have been missed, was NOT what is the best turntable on the market regardless of cost! It was for someone who was looking to pick up a used turntable to listen to records. And silly me, I attempted to present exactly what Maxg pointed out, a reasonable ROI acknowledging a reasonable point of diminishing returns. But some of you folks are determined to debate something other then the point I was trying to make: A reasonable entry system that would serve the original questioner well and perhaps exceed their expectations. NOT an esoteric system with an entry point into the thousands minus arm and cartridge, with the obligatory tonearm mods and cartridge re-wires, and $350 record clamps!! Just as I was not trying to make a case for hearing some subtle difference using the $1500/meter inconnects over the $30 homebrew interconnects using high quality components! And to (playfully) assume this same attitude, I still don't see how your esoteric turntable is going to sound any good without the Krell FPB650Ms or Pass Labs XA200s. And you AREN'T building a custom 3000sqft room personally designed by Russ Berger? well.......talk to me when you get Serious about this stuff! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ben. Posted April 15, 2005 Share Posted April 15, 2005 ---------------- On 4/15/2005 12:10:22 PM dragonfyr wrote: And my point is that you don't have to own a pair of Krell monoblock FPB650Ms at $12,500 apiece to have a nice sounding system that achieves 95% of what you accomplish with those units! But as I have said repeatedly, if you have the money and those priorities, be my guest! The original topic, which seems to have been missed, was NOT what is the best turntable on the market regardless of cost! It was for someone who was looking to pick up a used turntable to listen to records. And silly me, I attempted to present exactly what Maxg pointed out, a reasonable ROI acknowledging a reasonable point of diminishing returns. But some of you folks are determined to debate something other then the point I was trying to make: A reasonable entry system that would serve the original questioner well and perhaps exceed their expectations. NOT an esoteric system with an entry point into the thousands minus arm and cartridge, with the obligatory tonearm mods and cartridge re-wires, and $350 record clamps!! Just as I was not trying to make a case for hearing some subtle difference using the $1500/meter inconnects over the $30 homebrew interconnects using high quality components! And to (playfully) assume this same attitude, I still don't see how your esoteric turntable is going to sound any good without the Krell FPB650Ms or Pass Labs XA200s. And you AREN'T building a custom 3000sqft room personally designed by Russ Berger? well.......talk to me when you get Serious about this stuff! ---------------- What the hell are you talking about? You seem to have me confused with someone else, or you are just plain confused. Esoteric? I've got a freakin Scout! $1500 all-in. Is that OK with you? Does that qulaify me to comment on the issue? The only one in this conversation with anything bordering on the esoteric is Max, and he was clear about that & its non-relevance to the substance here. As to the Krell/Pass/Berger comments, I really don't know where you're coming up with this stuff. Perhaps the voices in your head are getting a bit hard to keep track of. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dragonfyr Posted April 15, 2005 Share Posted April 15, 2005 Wow! Who said you are the only one I am referring to!? I was speaking to a particular fetish among many that maxg refers to! And it is one that anyone is still welcome to entertain! After all we all like different things. And how dare I express an opinion regarding what I might refer to as the "Absolute Sound" addiction, where the esoteric nature of the equipment seems to be a prerequisite to one's enjoying the material. And if you re-read what I wrote, i had not problem one upgrading above the entry level. Thus why I recommended a 'mid-range' table slightly about a Thorens/AR unit! Gee, I think that is in the ballpark to which you ascribe! So I guess the issue is that I didn't list a particular model that you are most entitiled to like. Fine. There are many fine TTs in that price range that I didn't list, and for all the other folks who may feel slighted, i sincerely apologize. And I also suggest you take a valium. Oh, oh! I am being a smart aleck again! Will I ever learn to behave!? I don't know about the rest of you, but I fail to see a reason for any of this to become so intense. And opinions are just that - a position taken relative to a stated position that are intended for the context of the discussion. Tomorrow I will probably interpret it all differently. After all, I don't own the Music Hall 5 that I recommended! I have the higher end MH7. (And yes, the Regas, Sotas, Linns, etc. are nice too!!) Now that must confuse you to no end! And as far as the other comments, they are called "hyperbole", and no, that's not the curve thingie you slept through in math class. It's called an EXAGGERATION to make a point. And it was meant humorously! Sorry for my sardonic wit! Now where's the emoticon with the guy hitting his forehead!? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dragonfyr Posted April 15, 2005 Share Posted April 15, 2005 And just for the record... I DO covet the Krell FPB650Ms or Pass Labs XA200s. And I DO covet a custom 3000+ sq ft room personally designed by Russ Berger!! It would go great with my Porsche Carrera GTs! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dragonfyr Posted April 15, 2005 Share Posted April 15, 2005 ---------------- On 4/13/2005 3:14:41 PM bitece wrote: I'm looking for some recommendations on quality vintage turntables--makers, models, ...etc. I have saved my old lp's and am looking to pick up a vintage turntable (mid to late 1970's) to coincide with when I began collecting albums. ---------------- Lest anyone forgot what brought us here! Geez, what a smart @ss! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ben. Posted April 15, 2005 Share Posted April 15, 2005 Well, perhaps just a writing class, then. Less words, more point? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scott0527 Posted April 15, 2005 Share Posted April 15, 2005 If you mention your Porsche Carrera GTs one more time I'm gonna puke! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rplace Posted April 15, 2005 Share Posted April 15, 2005 Let me throw another wrench in the works. If you had only 1000 dollars to spend, no current vinyl collection and not much more DI on the near horizon. Do you: -Dump most of the $$ in the table and have one thrift store LP to listen to -Some balance like 500 each - If so what balance -Buy a $200 TT and a hand full of nicely press vinyl -Same $200 TT and lots of mid quality vinyl -Some other option All opinions and reasons welcomed Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rplace Posted April 15, 2005 Share Posted April 15, 2005 Scott, that bevis avitar cracks me up every time I see it! The annimation is what makes it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ben. Posted April 15, 2005 Share Posted April 15, 2005 I'd probably put most of the money into into the table (especially if I lived in Maryland ) That is were the dollars are best put- great records can be found for around a buck, but great tables generally can't. Of course, generalizations are always false. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rplace Posted April 15, 2005 Share Posted April 15, 2005 Hey now, Ben...don't be giving MY secrets away. This was a hypothetical exercise left for the reader to elicit some more fun reading for myself as they all rant back and forth. I know how I am spending my money and where I MIGHT just be able to score some killer vinyl deals.because I live in MD. Who else knows? Ill have to get my hit squad mobilized. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ben. Posted April 15, 2005 Share Posted April 15, 2005 Oh, sorry In that case, I'd spend $950 on arm/cart/table, $50 on a test record, and spend my days impressing myself! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edgewound Posted April 15, 2005 Share Posted April 15, 2005 ---------------- On 4/15/2005 1:29:55 PM dragonfyr wrote: ---------------- On 4/13/2005 3:14:41 PM bitece wrote: I'm looking for some recommendations on quality vintage turntables--makers, models, ...etc. I have saved my old lp's and am looking to pick up a vintage turntable (mid to late 1970's) to coincide with when I began collecting albums. ---------------- Lest anyone forgot what brought us here! Geez, what a smart @ss! ---------------- Good point! What do Music Hall tables have to do with vintage tables anyway? Hasn't Rega been around since the early 1980s, qualifying them as vintage as far as electronics go? But what I really want to know is how Music Hall "EATS UP" REGA?!?!?! YOU SAID IT, NO ONE ELSE! PLEASE EXPLAIN, I really want to know the basis for your comment. As I said, I'm in the market for a table in the $1500.00 and under price range and used Regas can be picked up very reasonably. Thanks again, if I get an answer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hurdy_gurdyman Posted April 16, 2005 Share Posted April 16, 2005 Thought I'd mention I hooked up the AR-XA today with my old trusty ADC XLM cartridge. So far, the table seems to hold it's own with my Thorens TD-160. I like the spartan look of the AR, which is even more spartan than the Thorens. I'll listen for a few days and see what I think then. Anyone know if the less expensive Grado's perform ok in the AR-XA's, or do they hum like they do in the Thorens TD-160? Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edgewound Posted April 21, 2005 Share Posted April 21, 2005 ---------------- On 4/15/2005 3:34:45 PM Edgewound wrote: ---------------- On 4/15/2005 1:29:55 PM dragonfyr wrote: ---------------- On 4/13/2005 3:14:41 PM bitece wrote: I'm looking for some recommendations on quality vintage turntables--makers, models, ...etc. I have saved my old lp's and am looking to pick up a vintage turntable (mid to late 1970's) to coincide with when I began collecting albums. ---------------- Lest anyone forgot what brought us here! Geez, what a smart @ss! ---------------- Good point! What do Music Hall tables have to do with vintage tables anyway? Hasn't Rega been around since the early 1980s, qualifying them as vintage as far as electronics go? But what I really want to know is how Music Hall "EATS UP" REGA?!?!?! YOU SAID IT, NO ONE ELSE! PLEASE EXPLAIN, I really want to know the basis for your comment. As I said, I'm in the market for a table in the $1500.00 and under price range and used Regas can be picked up very reasonably. Thanks again, if I get an answer ---------------- Thanks for all the help! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gonzp Posted April 21, 2005 Share Posted April 21, 2005 So what was the LP that was left on the Kenwood table bitece? Curious minds want to know Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
axelsrd Posted April 22, 2005 Share Posted April 22, 2005 I play my vinyl on a Pioneer PL-71 (similar to the PL-51) from the mid 70's and run it through my RB-35's and couldn't be happier...well, yes I could by my wife says I better be happy with what I have. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bitece Posted April 22, 2005 Author Share Posted April 22, 2005 After some of the sentiments expressed in previous posts I'm sure everyone could use a laugh! With that in mind I'll reveal what the record was that I left on the turntable: The original motion picture soundtrack "To Live and Die in LA" by Wang Chung. Gimme a break-- it was the eighties! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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