ZAKO Posted April 27, 2005 Share Posted April 27, 2005 Sunnysal....Yes replacing the midrange will also make a big difference. But its not for the faint of heart. It can get quite expensive. And there are alot of possible avenues to travel. I wont get into details yet. ALK went one way J. Warren went another. I and several others went an expensive third way. ALL have been very sucessful in our designs and are happy with the results. But dont expect all the above to sound alike. Just different to resolve some problems in the vast midrange cunnendrum. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markus111 Posted April 27, 2005 Author Share Posted April 27, 2005 Yeah, the midrange thing. I think most of my midrange woes come from the fact that the room is too small and I'm too close to the horns. I actually have a couple of 511b horns and 802-16G drivers waiting in the wings. I was going to hook them up, but I may wait and get used to this JBL 2404 in my system. It sounds so good right now, I may wait a week or so and then re-evaluate to see if there are any other changes I want to make. Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sunnysal Posted April 27, 2005 Share Posted April 27, 2005 Maron, I am very familiar with what john did, can you remind what you did re: midhorn/driver? thanks, tony Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted April 27, 2005 Share Posted April 27, 2005 "The lower range of the 2404H is low enough in frequency to be getting a significant amount of signal, there is also significant overlap in frequency between the mid range and treble on the Klipschorn." This is really something that is network specific. There is quite a bit of overlap in a first order network like the Type A or DHAxover, but not as much with the AA, AKs, and ALK. Of course with the ESN, there is practically zilch. AK-4 is better in this regard as well, since it's 36db/octave between the squawker and tweeter. Something that can be easily integrated is a second autoformer, which is what I'm going to do with the ALKs I'm building. If the autoformer is situated between the driver and tweeter filter, the different taps can be utilized to attenuate the tweeter without having to change any component values. Thanks to Al and UT, there is now the perfect autoformer for this, which supplies attenuation in 2db increments. I personally think this is the way to go if trying to incorporate a new tweeter into the mix. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3dzapper Posted April 27, 2005 Share Posted April 27, 2005 Sounds like you are on to something there Dean. Attenuation without resistive loading is why PWK went with the autoformer in the squaker circuit originally. Rick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markus111 Posted April 27, 2005 Author Share Posted April 27, 2005 ---------------- On 4/27/2005 10:11:35 AM DeanG wrote: Something that can be easily integrated is a second autoformer, which is what I'm going to do with the ALKs I'm building. If the autoformer is situated between the driver and tweeter filter, the different taps can be utilized to attenuate the tweeter without having to change any component values. Thanks to Al and UT, there is now the perfect autoformer for this, which supplies attenuation in 2db increments. I personally think this is the way to go if trying to incorporate a new tweeter into the mix. ---------------- Dean, That's a good idea - I was thinking of doing the same thing. I think you will also need a swamping resistor on the input the tweeter autoformer. If you just use the autoformer, it will raise the reflected impedance of the tweeter, which will change the crossover point. The swamping resistor in parallel with the autoformer brings the impedance back down to 8 ohms or so. Al had a suggested value for this in another thread. I think it was 15 ohms?????? Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted April 27, 2005 Share Posted April 27, 2005 That's right Mark, you'll still use a swamping resistor. I have the data on the new autotransformer in my inbox at home, with some other data Al provided. I only gave it a cursory look. I wasn't much worried about the specifics of the final solution until I got to that point -- my parts from Solen are floating somewhere between here and Canada. I'm sure Al will pop in here shortly and set us all straight, right Al? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Klappenberger Posted April 27, 2005 Share Posted April 27, 2005 Guys, Yes, I have the new transformer for use with tweeters. It will require a swamping resistor. I'm having a PC board made that will use a movable plug to select 2,4,6 or 8 dB attenuation and the correct swamping resistor together. 10 and 12 dB will also be possible with some jury-rigging. Al K. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jorjen Posted April 27, 2005 Share Posted April 27, 2005 Mr. K., What would be the ideal procedure/method one would use to integrate these into an existing network, say your "A" type replacement? I know that with a network that is already built, space will be an issue. But, let's just assume for the sake of this discussion that space is not a problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Klappenberger Posted April 27, 2005 Share Posted April 27, 2005 Jorden, It is an exact drop-in replacement for an L-pad. 8 ohms in, 8 ohms out. Al k. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markus111 Posted April 27, 2005 Author Share Posted April 27, 2005 That sounds great Al. Is there any concern using these for tweeters with respect to frequency response? Just curious if they roll off at the top like most transformers do. Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jorjen Posted April 27, 2005 Share Posted April 27, 2005 Ok, cool. Thanks Mr. K. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZAKO Posted April 28, 2005 Share Posted April 28, 2005 Sunnysal....Some of us modified a variant of the K401 to accept a 2" driver sutch as the TAD 4001. I elected to use a Multisepta Smith horn (wood) A simillar Smith horn was made by JBL, The 2397. Larger versions were made up to 31" wide. Smaller tweeter versions were made 1/4 the width for 1" drivers. The Smith horns are sought after by those in the know for the smooth & even sound. Westlake audio still makes them for there moniters. A couple of European companys also make them. A few of my friends have made their own. Also a Wood version of the Altec 311 is now being produced. Plus a tiny version for tweets. ( dont think its tiny). Of course the TAD wood mid Horn is available for the really deep pocket friends on this forum. I use a electronic crossover tri-amped. thats 6 amps. I can change slopes 6db 12db 18db 24db & change to any frequency & level I want. I can modify EQ if nessary & time & phaze. most mid horns Ive made fit in top Khorn unit. Those that dont sit on top. I love my JBL 2404 (plus some others) It now sits on top of cabinet. I bought my tweets when Warren was still in diapers. I drop its level down 1db to match the rest of system. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marvel Posted April 28, 2005 Share Posted April 28, 2005 Maron, Do you know anyone who has used any of the Fostex wooden horns? Their H400 (1: thoat) is about $470. You have to go to their H200 for a 2" throat, with a 240Hz cutoff. (They show 240kHz on their pdf, LOL). Marvel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZAKO Posted April 28, 2005 Share Posted April 28, 2005 Marvel....I dont have anything on the Fostex H400 0r H 200....Do you mean the H-220, 320, 325, 420, 425 units? They are not the same design as the Smith horns. Its been light years since I heard a Fostex horn. You were probably crapping in your diapers when I heard my first fostex horns. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sunnysal Posted April 28, 2005 Share Posted April 28, 2005 thanks for the info maron, if you have a web URLs for those various smith and fostex horns I would love to investigate...the "wood 311" I saw offered on ebay seemed to use a diffrent flare and dimensions, it was a 311 only in the sense that it crosses over low, like 300hz...is there another out there? you know I plan to triamp and use an active crossover soon so I owuld like to upgrade my midrange...I though about adapting a altec 290 driver to the existing k-horn mid-horn but was daunted as I saw the cutting, etc....do you have any drawgins, photos etc. of how the 2" was fitted to the k-horn? thanks, tony Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZAKO Posted April 28, 2005 Share Posted April 28, 2005 Sunnysal....The the Lansing Heritage forum.. A guy going by avitar WIDGET makes Smith horns. Alot of drawings have been on the site this month plus adapter design from driver to horn. ..Yes the Ebay guy is really a good 311 using a JBL 2328 adapter. Westlake makes them but you need a pound of gold. a bit pricy. TAD units are over $2000. I understand the wood Fostex are reasonable. The K401 to JBL adapter takes some cutting epoxy talent DJK can explain that better. He,s done some. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marvel Posted April 28, 2005 Share Posted April 28, 2005 ---------------- On 4/28/2005 5:58:45 PM Maron Horonzak wrote: Marvel....I dont have anything on the Fostex H400 0r H 200....Do you mean the H-220, 320, 325, 420, 425 units? They are not the same design as the Smith horns. Its been light years since I heard a Fostex horn. You were probably crapping in your diapers when I heard my first fostex horns. ---------------- Could be Maron, since you are 13 years older than me. Were you that young when you heard them? The ones on the Fostex site are the ones I mentioned. Plus, there is a pair of the Smith Horns at Jammin' Jersey for $600, with the adapters: 2397 140° Wooden "Smith" Horns and 2328 Metal 2" Throats - This horn has legendary smooth sound and wide dispersion. Excellent condition. Marvel woodhorn.pdf Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markus111 Posted April 28, 2005 Author Share Posted April 28, 2005 There was a guy on Audiogon with those Fostex horns for sale. It looked like a steal, as he was selling the fostex mid horns plus drivers, fostex tweeters, and fostex bass bins for $1400! The only catch was it was pickup only, as these babies weighed about 300 pounds a piece. Back to the 2404 - I tried padding them down with an l-pad tonight. They are the rotary l-pads from partsexpress. Man, these sounded awful! After listening for a while, I went ahead and measured the system. The tweeters were matched to the mid as far as volume, but it was severely rolled off above 16khz. There must be some inductance in those cheap l-pads. It wasn't just rolled off though, it really sounded horrible. I may pick up a pair of autoformers for the tweeters. Has anyone actually tried this yet? I know Dean and Al said they were going to try it. I was just curious if anyone has experience using the autoformers on their tweeters. Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZAKO Posted April 28, 2005 Share Posted April 28, 2005 The Jammin Jersey ...2397 horns have been sitting there for about a year. I dont know the condition. I did,nt think you were that old, My condolences. But then again, Its diaper time again. All kidding aside. I just cant seem to break away from the 2397 horns. Ill try something else but keep coming back to that horn as sounding just right. Some friends of mine have made larger versions of the Smith horn. crossing over lower using phenolic diaphramed JBL drivers (2482) 300hz. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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