markus111 Posted April 18, 2005 Author Share Posted April 18, 2005 Al, John, Sorry - I didn't mean to start a war! I respect both of your opinions, as you both have obviously done much more work than I have. Like most on this forum, I'm simply trying to get the best sound possible out of my beloved Klipschorns. ---------------- The element values in the tweeter filter are as they are to be compatible with the squawker filter associated with it. To change them for any reason is to mess up the smooth transition between the tweeter filter and the squawker filter. They are an inseperable pair! ---------------- That's kind of what I was looking for WRT the ALK. I'll leave well enough alone, and not mess up my ALK. I may still have to try John's filter with my AA's though. I'm a pathological tweaker - please don't hurt me... Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
formica Posted April 18, 2005 Share Posted April 18, 2005 Why is it i have flashes of Jack Lemmon and Walter Matthau? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3dzapper Posted April 18, 2005 Share Posted April 18, 2005 Mark, The 2404 works beautifully with Al's stock network with only the addition of a pad. The transition from the K-55 is smooth as a baby's cheek. There are plenty of other tweaks to keep you going. Rick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Warren Posted April 19, 2005 Share Posted April 19, 2005 Mark- The JBL 2404H network I provided in the article is a straigthfwd 3rd order BW that terminates into a 6 Ohm load. The LCR is used to compensate for a electrical domain resonance at 4.7kHz. In some of the tweeters I've measured, the magnitude of Z at this peak is as large a 16 Ohms. The LCR, in parallel with the tweeter is about 6 Ohms between 3-8kHz. The -3dB point of the crossover terminating into this load is approx. 6kHz, about 1/2 octave above. That said, a large number of DIYers have built the tweeter filter as shown in the article and find it adds considerable value to the stock setup. I would not however recommend that you attempt integrate the filter into the alk. Also, fwiw, the JBL is a huge improvement over the stock tweeter. The addition of an LCR, in no concievable way, suggests that the "quality" of the tweeter is in question. jw Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Klappenberger Posted April 19, 2005 Share Posted April 19, 2005 Mark, As Rick suggested, all you should need is an "L" pad. And BTW: 1 Ohms and 32 Ohms is NOT a correct L pad! It provides about 1.6 dB loss in a 8 Ohms system but is not the right ratio. Also, an L-pad, if propery done, will improve the load seen by the network making the stupid R-L-C thing even more useless! Only a ten-cent tweeter would require crowbar equalizer like that! Get rid of it! Tweaking stuff is a lot of fun, but you got to do it correctly. You can only cut and paste "black boxes" like filter sections together when their input and output parameters are proper for each other. Screwing around with HALF a diplexer shows noting more than a total lack of understanding of the overall picture! AL K. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sunnysal Posted April 19, 2005 Share Posted April 19, 2005 Mark, Do not worry, the JBL 2404H is NOT a ten cent tweeter, don´t let anyone tell you otherwise. I cannt confirm or deny if you need a notch filter for them in this application but have no doubt about the quality of this TOP LINE tweeter. Regards, Tony Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZAKO Posted April 19, 2005 Share Posted April 19, 2005 Ive never found a passive crossover thats worth spitt. I went to active electronic xovers 30 yrs ago and never looked back. I can dial in any frequency, any slope, any level. It was the best investmemt I ever made. AS you can see with even the best brains in xover design, confusion is always a pissing problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted April 19, 2005 Share Posted April 19, 2005 I have no pissing problems. Tony, Al didn't say the 2404 was a 10 cent tweeter, he said only a 10 cent tweeter would need a fix like that. So, I say it's a $250 tweeter that needs a 10 cent tweeter fix. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Klappenberger Posted April 19, 2005 Share Posted April 19, 2005 Tony, The JBL is absolutely NOT a dime store item! This is my point. I does not need all that senseless crap to make it's response smooth! Mark, It has to very frustrating to the average person trying to improve his system when so-called "experts" disagree totally. He is left completely to his own judgment. Who do you beleive? Marion, As to active versus passive crossovers, it's the usual trade-off. Each as it's advantages and disadvantages. You use the type that best suits your needs. The advantage of being able to dial in your crossover frequency, slope and levels is a double-edged sord. One person my say "I CAN dial in this and that" while the next guy will say "I HAVE TO dial in this and that"! The passive network is a drop-in unit that takes all the guesswork out of the thing for the guy who really doesn't know what he needs and doesn't want to waste time experimenting. The first guy just loves to do the experimenting! It's up to you! Al K. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markus111 Posted April 19, 2005 Author Share Posted April 19, 2005 ---------------- It has to very frustrating to the average person trying to improve his system when so-called "experts" disagree totally. He is left completely to his own judgment. Who do you beleive? ---------------- Frustrating? No, it's actually a lot like being at work. I design automotive controllers, and it's a good day that there are only two experts disagreeing. Who do I believe? I'm not sure you could pay me to stir the pot with that stick! I have to believe that you both have valid points, as you both have obviously put a lot of thought and work into this. And you both have people who support you in this forum and elsewhere. In the end, I'll have to let my ears be the judge (and my wifes, I suppose ). Audio is such a subjective endeavor that it's amazing that anyone can agree on anything. I've stood right next to someone listening to a system that he thought was great and I couldn't stand - and vice versa. And the numbers never tell the whole story. If they did, then everyone would buy the amp with the lowest possible distortion figures, and no one would even consider something such as a single ended tube amp. I really do appreciate all of the comments given, and I'm looking forward to experimenting with these tweeters. Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted April 19, 2005 Share Posted April 19, 2005 The numbers do tell the whole story -- you just have to find the right numbers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markus111 Posted April 19, 2005 Author Share Posted April 19, 2005 ---------------- On 4/19/2005 12:35:38 PM DeanG wrote: The numbers do tell the whole story -- you just have to find the right numbers. ---------------- I'm sure that's true, it's just that no can agree what the right numbers are. If you want to see experts duke it out, just bring up the subject of distortion profiles to amp builders! They have been debating that one for 50 years, and they are still giving each other black eyes. Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sunnysal Posted April 19, 2005 Share Posted April 19, 2005 "for the guy who really doesn't know what he needs and doesn't want to waste time experimenting" That´s me exactly! I must say that it always worries me when various people who seem to understand the subject come to different conclusions, I have no criteria to understand who is right and who is stuffed full of cookies. I plugged the 2404H into the ALK and it sounded quite good! I have not padded it down as of yet (in fact I went back to the original tweeter becasue I have not figured out how to integrate the 2404H into my k-horn top hat) but I will get around to it eventually. Re: passive versus active, I would go with a passive unless I was planning to triamp (which I am), I it is preferable to have the crossover points, slopes, individual driver levels and even individual driver dealy controlled by the electronic crossover in the triamp situation. regards, tony Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Klappenberger Posted April 19, 2005 Share Posted April 19, 2005 Mark, Having two engineers in a disagreement being a good thing is an interesting point of view! All I can say is that it does inspire everybody to look deeper into the fracts! I will say with 100% certainty that you should not modify the element values in the tweeter filter of my network! That is a mistake. The idea is to make the load (tweeter) look like what the network wants to see, 8 Ohms. That is what Warren tried to do with his R-L-C thing. It's simply unnecessary. It makes the tweeter look more like 6 Ohms than 8 even by his curves. Neither 6 nor 10 is right but still within the 1.5:1 acceptable mismatch tollerance. If you want to improve things without generating a Rube Goldburg, simply connect a 39 Ohm swamping resistor across the JBL. That will make it 8 Ohms where it counts. The published Zo curve for it shows it is more like 10 Ohms. The network is most critical to the load at the crossover of 6000 Hz. In the stopband, at about 4200 Hz where Warren's cluge is centered, it is not as important. You will have to be the judge by listening, but I say you don't need that cluge and you will likey not hear any significant difference! It's correctness also depend on the equipment used to measure the impedance. Warren doesn't have the correct stuff and becasue his curves don't agree with JBL's curves, I would be very suspect of them! Al K. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marvel Posted April 19, 2005 Share Posted April 19, 2005 ---------------- On 4/19/2005 5:05:01 AM John Warren wrote: That said, a large number of DIYers have built the tweeter filter as shown in the article and find it adds considerable value to the stock setup. I would not however recommend that you attempt integrate the filter into the alk. jw ---------------- It seems that John said you shouldn't use his filter on the ALK network. Marvel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Klappenberger Posted April 19, 2005 Share Posted April 19, 2005 Marvel, If Warren said "I would not however recommend that you attempt integrate the filter into the alk.", we finally agree on something! Al k. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZAKO Posted April 19, 2005 Share Posted April 19, 2005 Now that is a miracle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markus111 Posted April 19, 2005 Author Share Posted April 19, 2005 ---------------- On 4/19/2005 6:32:20 PM Al Klappenberger wrote: Marvel, If Warren said "I would not however recommend that you attempt integrate the filter into the alk.", we finally agree on something! Al k. ---------------- That works for me! Thanks again guys for all of your advice. Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markus111 Posted April 27, 2005 Author Share Posted April 27, 2005 Well I finally got the JBL tweeters - they must have been on the slow boat to China and back! I hooked them up to the stock ALK's, replacing the T35. What a difference! I cannont believe how good these sound. They are running a little hot, so I'll have to pad them down by about 2db. But even hot, these sound great! I expected the treble to sound better. What surprised me was how much better the whole midrange sounded. I've had some harshness with the midrange that I noticed, even when I had the T35's disconnected. I put the JBL's in, and the midrange harshness goes away. How is that possible? Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sunnysal Posted April 27, 2005 Share Posted April 27, 2005 the lower range of the 2404H is low enough in frequency to be getting a significant amount of signal, there is also significant overlap in frequency between the mid range and treble on the klipschorn...it affects the sound quite a bit...imagine what replacing the mid range driver (and/or horn) with an equally excellent unit might do! regards, tony Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.