Cornwall Birch Refinishing

[Kriton]

Hey ya'll,

Long time lurker with a few questions...I have a pair of late 80's Cornwalls that I got as second owner some 6 years ago. The cabinets were never finished (raw birch) and are mint(no cosmetic problems at all - they have been babied something fierce), and I recently decided to refinish them. I didn't want to stain them in a dark finish, so I decided to buy some "natural" stain and just oil them down.

My question is this; after sitting for 20 years without any kind of preservative on them at all, the birch raised up in spots and was pretty rough to the touch..I used some very fine sanding blocks, and 0000 steel wool to smoothe the wood down which worked well to the touch. However, when I tried to run a rag over the surface to get rid of the stray dust, the rag would catch on very small splinters, tearing out minute fibers of cloth. No matter how hard I have sanded this thing, nor how fine of grit I use, I am still having the rag catch on the grain. I smoothed them down as far as I could (being careful not to pierce the thin veneer) and went ahead and stained them, using a prestain conditioner and the natural stain. The stain turned them a warm golden color which is fantastic, but I am still experiencing the rag pull.

Short of laminating veneer on these things, or painting on poly (neither of which are acceptable to me), do I have any other recourse?

Should I perhaps put some wax on them now in an attempt to fill in the grain? WHat do you think?

Thanks in advance..

K

[BS Button]

There are several threads concerning refinishing and re-veneering..etc. But have you tried BLO (Boiled linseed oil)? Or you could opt out for Deft spray lacquer, which is exceedingly more difficult. Both of these will put a finish over the wood and stain. There was some thread a while back where a guy was using a 5:3:1 (I think?) mixture of BLO, turpentine and stain. Apply the mixture with 0000 steel wool, let each side sit for say 30 minutes and buff away the excess with some old rags. Watch out for spontaneous combustion on the BLO, it's no joke.

[Kriton]

Thanks for the reply...I really don't want to put a hard seal on these, I would rather the "just wood" look hence the reference to no polyurethane, etc.

So, I am still looking for any other options...anyone?

Surely someone has some ideas?

Thanks!

K

[BS Button]

The BLO would not necessarily be a hard finish, but you are correct on one count: do not use polyurethane.

[michael hurd]

I don't know of any other recommendation to give you other than to not use a rag to dust them. Could you use a fine brush attachment for a vacuum cleaner?

[WMcD]

I think that you are running into the fine structure of the wood itself.

Generally, plant cells are defined as having a cellulose outer wall. The outer planar structure of the veneer, or indeed any plank, is thus a microscopic checkerboard of damaged, ruptured cells forming wiskers. Even the most fine sandpaper can't leave a surface of of only complete cell walls.

Some of this comes up when woodworkers sand or scrape things smooth and then put on a first coat. There is "grain raising". This is probably when the edges of the broken cells and the first coat interact to make tiny edges of cellulose which are bloatted full of the finish.

The solution, for them, is to use a dilute shellac or varnish to really get things sopped up and absorbed, and solid. Then sand with very fine paper to take off the wiskers without breaking through to open up a lower surface of cells which would have, new, soft wiskers.

It looks like you're looking for a smooth finish which doesn't darken the birch.

I'm getting set to use some Birchwood Casey Gunstock Tru Oil on my walnut speakers. This is reported to be what the factory uses. I tried some on a piece of birch ply from HD. It does darken a little bit. Not too much.

All the woodworking books say the same thing: You have to experiment and build your skills.

Best,

Gil

[Kriton]

OK, how about this...could I use the oil you suggest as a "wet" substrate and attack the surface with wet/dry sandpaper in the 600 grit range? What would that do to the raised whiskers?

I put the pre-stain sealer on the speakers and I think they are as dark using natural oil as they are going to get, but I would really like to try and get the surface as flat as I can...

Yes, I can use a vac to take off the dust, but I am thinking down the road, whe I want to dust these things, I would just like to run a rag over them, and feel that nice baby butt smoothness...get me?

Thank for the replies! What about my idea?

K

[formica]

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On 5/2/2005 9:26:27 PM William F. Gil McDermott wrote:

... There is "grain raising". This is probably when the edges of the broken cells and the first coat interact to make tiny edges of cellulose which are bloatted full of the finish.

The solution, for them, is to use a dilute shellac or varnish to really get things sopped up and absorbed, and solid. Then sand with very fine paper to take off the wiskers without breaking through to open up a lower surface of cells which would have, new, soft wiskers. ...

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That sounds about right.

I'd like to add that given birch is a relatively soft wood (actually it's one of the softest "hardwoods") it's much more susceptible to grain raising. Additional sanding will only break more cells. Like Gil mentioned, the idea here is to solidify so I'm not sure how well just oil will do that unless it hardens quite a bit.

I've had good luck with poly's (semi-gloss look pretty natural) and resanding, but you already mentioned a dislike for this.

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On 5/2/2005 11:27:26 PM Kriton wrote:

OK, how about this...could I use the oil you suggest as a "wet" substrate and attack the surface with wet/dry sandpaper in the 600 grit range? What would that do to the raised whiskers?

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It'll only break more cells... so you'll create new whiskers while getting rid of the existing ones. Your best bet is to get some scrap birch veneer plywood, and experiment with the different products to find one (linseed, tungsten, etc...) that hardens enough to allow some buffing and sanding once dry. Birch is porous.

If you decide to reveener but still don't want a varnish, you should look into true hardwoods (oak, walnut, mahogany, etc...) which will be easier to oil.

Good luck...

Rob

[PrestonTom]

Hello Kriton,

Gil is correct. The 1st coat will raise the grain, which can then be lightly sanded (some folks wet-sand and some folks use steel wool - but there are pros and cons on that one). One concern however is that although the cabinets are "raw" they probably have picked up dirt and various oils and wax-like grime over the years.

Not all of this may have been removed by the sanding. If this is the case then the oil will not take evenly. If you are using any stain or pigment, then the darker the pigment is, then any uneveness will be even more noticeable. There are deglossers available (these are actually dillute finish strippers). If you choose this route, use them sparingly and wipe them off with thinner afterwards (as usual, follow the directions on the can). Anytime you use a stripper or deglosser, there is chance of harming a thin ply or veneer (or the glue that holds it on).

When you are eady to finish, BLO is a good choice (follow the directions carefully and work methodically). As an alternative, my favorite has always been the Watco products (they used to be danish oil composition - but now they are water based and I am not sure of the composition).

As usual the more time/prep you spend - the better the finished product. BTW stay away from any products (waxes/polishes) that contain silicones.

Good luck,

-Tom

[joshnich]

Before you dismiss a poly type finish..be sure to look at Chris Kings Cornwalls. These were originally finished with BLO finish and wax. I know because Chris and I did the finish when I brought them home from the store unfinished. I owned them for years before bequeathing them to Chris. he then had to deal with 20 years of yellowed oil and wax. But with the help of modern chemistry turned them into a pair of cornwalls to be drooled over. My advice would be not to mess them up with BLO, but to stain and finish them properly.

This is not a slam on oiled finished speakers I own some myself. But with the unfinished Birch there are options that will serve him better. IMHO

Check them out here

http://forums.klipsch.com/idealbb/view.asp?topicID=64147&sessionID={C6838A9B-5C7F-4229-8C6B-18FB3549BC26}

[BS Button]

Yes, I drool over Kings Corns all the time, but they were professionally done, correct?

[Kriton]

OK...what are the options? I see the pictures and those are some gorgeous Corns... the cosmetics of my speakers are just as good (as good as they get for Corn II, no decorators with those beautiful fronts... What exactly did you do to finish those Corns in the above post?

BUT, what the options, how do you implement them, pros and cons, where is a good place to get the finishes and supplies? I am using Home Depot stuff here, and it just aint cutting it...I am disappointed with the outcome here (even though it is far better than it was...)

Also, any suggestions for blackening up the face of the Corns behind the grill with out repainting? I was think ig of black shoe polish rubbed into the black and then wiped off, is this a bad idea, should I just try to repaint? The paint is good, but it is fading and I would like to get it nice and dark with out painting if possible...

Just a thought...

Thanks! I appreciate the feedback, it has been really helpful.

K

[joshnich]

I would PM or email Chris ( it ChrisK on the forum) He can take you through the process of what he did. It sounds like you have already done the elbow grease work, so it may not be that hard to get them like Chris'

J

[Kriton]

OK, I didn't have a chance to PM Chris because I need to get these things done pronto.

Here is what happened, if you are interested. I stained the speakers several times with the natural stain, let it sit, wiped them down and felt for rough spots. I then sanded them again, NOT using steel wool (which I think like the rag was pulling up the cell hairs as you call them), but with a synthetic ultra fine 3M pad I got at HD. The last time I let the stain sit over night on the speaker, and it was very tacky the next morning to my horror ( I forgot them, this was not planned). Rubbing in one direction, I got the tackiness off with that same sanding pad until smooth (really more just rubbing off the dried on gunk then actually sanding the surface). I then rubbed on a last coat of the stain, and wiped it off immediately.

The surface is very smooth and doesn't sppear to pick up the fibers of the rag I used to rub it down with this time...I think the gunk filled in the holes? Can't tell there is anything wrong with the speaker surface, they shine (dully) and are quite pretty. I will try to post picts when complete.

Thanks for all your help.

K

[PrestonTom]

Kriton,

It looks like there was the usual number of hiccups in project. But rejoice, you like the color and the surface is smooth. If you are disatisfied with the sheen on the surface, you have a number of options. Since I don't know what stain you used (was it in an oil or poly or what), I will suggest a wax finish. This will (probably) remain on the surface and not change the color. The more hand rubing / number of coats then the better the sheen. Two caveats: it will not produce a high gloss and it requires some care (do not put a drink on top or you wil get a ring blemish). Of course there are other options. But you have the color you want and and the surface is smooth. This adds up to success!

-Tom

[Kriton]

Tom,

What wax product would you suggest?

I used just natural Minwax oil stain on these...

Doesn't wax yellow with age? Any way to avoid "waxy build-up" or is that a myth?

K

[franczyk]

You are probably using a water based stain, which will always raise the grain. They make non-grain raising stains which are based on alcohol or oil.

http://www.constantines.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=1994

[Kriton]

Ok, thanks for the reply! While I said above that used an oil based stain, I appreciate that link, lots of excellent stuff there, looks much better than the run of the mill at HD (even though I HD!

Thanks again!

K

[Keta]

This is Howard Feed-N-Wax. Great product that I use on my 80' unfinished LaScala's. Gives a nice warm color and protection without any poly.