Anti-cable speaker cables and yes now IC's.

[scriven]

Bernmart,

As a newbie you do not have the full context in which to place our comments. The cable wars have been raging hear for almost as long as the Empire and Rebels have been going at it in George's SiFi movies. So we can get a little short when someone brings it up again.

I would not say that anyone who has bought big $ cables is a moron. I will suggest that anyone who has just shelled out mega bucks for some wire and then hooks it up will convince themselves that they hear a difference. They have to justify, even if only to themselves, that outlay. I will also suggest that in an A/B test they would not be able to hear a difference. Moron, no. I wouldnt go past fool - as in, and his money are soon parted.

I will say that there are MANY better places to spend your hard earned money to improve your system before worrying about wires.

As far as the audio writers reviews go I have yet to read one where a decent A/B comparison was done. (By that I mean at least single blind and preferably double blind.) I am not saying it has never been done, just that if it has been done I have not seen it. Are they frauds? Some of that question goes to motive and I have no way of knowing what their motives are. I would tend to give them the benefit of the doubt and go with mistaken. Having said that, I would also check to see if the magic cable manufacturer advertises in the publication.

I also know that when you start talking about break in time for a piece of wire you are in a world with different physical rules that the one I am constrained to.

May the Force be with you!

Sorry if I annoyed you.

[bernmart]

Mark, thanks for the gracious reply, and for the context. I admit to finding this whole topic confusing.

Thanks again,

Bernie

[dragonfyr]

"Until someone brings it up again" is an understatement. I would say that it is a weekly event, but that would not be giving it the credence it 'deserves'.

You would think such a fundamental issue would have been put to bed with a summary of the various positions available for perusal. But some seem to delight in repeating what has become more of a temper tantrum then a debate for pure entertainment reasons. Rather like the 'newbies entering the prison' scene in the Shawshank Redemption.

Its a shame that there is no FAQ section here to warn folks who have either independently derived opinions or who have been effected by the marketing hype that surrounds the industry. At least then folks wouldn't innocently wander into the hornet's nest and they could pick their battles on a more voluntary basis.

So... while you have been introduced to one of the issues held here that are contrary to the marketing hype in the industry (& which if you are into looking at the physics - watch out, thats a bad word around here too, as some resent others understanding that weird math witchcraft - there is some interesting research that relegate the use of 'exotic' cables to niche applications & loads.) In other words, for 'reasonable' runs dealing with real world audio frequencies and 'normal' loads, think 'resistance'.

Just be aware that many of the 'enlightened' opinions that you will encounter here are also based upon emotions as well. Just try to navigate the waters wisely, and use discretion in your evaluation.

Have fun...

[scriven]

Bernie,

Let's see if I can reduce some of your confusion.

First, all electronic components exhibit some resistance, capacitance and inductance. Obviously, a resistor exhibits much more resistance than capacitance or inductance. Likewise, a capacitor exhibits much more capacitance than resistance or inductance.

While all wires in audio applications are intended to transmit a signal from one device to another there are three major applications. One is transferring a low level signal to a preamp. Examples of this are a microphone or a phonograph cartridge to a preamp. The next step is from a "line level" device to another device. Examples of this are a CD, DVD or tape player to a preamp or the preamp output to the power amp. The last use is from the power amp output to the speakers. As you can imagine, the requirements for the trip from the turntable cartridge to the preamp are very different then from the power amp to the speakers.

The two lower level signal applications are referred to as interconnects. In interconnect applications there is very little current so the resistance is not as important as the capacitance. Good shielding is also important since any noise that is picked will be amplified along with the audio signal. These connections are feeding high impedance inputs. (Impedance is the ac analog to dc resistance.)

Speakers are low impedance devices. This means that the wire has to carry much more current than interconnect cables. In this application resistance is more important than capacitance or inductance. Also, unshielded speaker wire is sufficient.

Obviously I have made some simplifications and generalizations. Some circumstances may require special solutions. For example, if you need to run a speaker wire 150' and you live next to a radio station transmitter then unshielded may not work very well.

I hope that helps you.

[bernmart]

Very helpful indeed, Mark. Thanks again.

Bernie

[nicholtl]

Great post, Mark. That helped me understand things a lot better too!

[scriven]

Thank you gents.

People are being nice; guess it is time to stir the pot!

Ok, now let's talk a little about speaker wire.

First, so you know up front where I am coming from, I do not believe in "magic cables". Also, while I tried to stay factual with my prior post, this one contains my opinion. You are free to take it or leave it and it is worth every cent you paid for it.

As I said earlier, the important factor in speaker wire is resistance. I have seen plenty of people hawking "magic" speaker cable but for some reason they never seem to quote the resistance of their wire as compared to various gauges of copper wire. Why is that? They are in the speaker cable business, they must know that that is the most important spec that they could quote, yet they don't. Bernie, you asked if I thought audio reviewers are frauds. I am not sure about them but I do think that the people making and marketing magic speaker cables are ether frauds or incompetents. I put Monster at the top of this list. Since this thread started discussing Paul Speltz's equipment let's look at his stuff. The name of his web site is www.zeroimpedance.com. As I said earlier, impedance is to ac as resistance is to dc. Based on the guy's web site name selection it would certainly seem that he understands how important resistance is. Yet, on the tech spec page he rambles on about how these things have lower capacitance than almost anything else on the planet - if you "Do your best (without getting Audiophilia Nervosa) to keep them a few inches away from anything, including the carpeted floor". (That is a real quote from the web page folks! I can't make this stuff up!) All that stuff about low capacitance is nice, it may even be true, but it is defiantly not relevant! As is typical of magic cable manufactures, he never does get around to quoting any specs on the resistance of these things. After all the hullabaloo about capacitance he doesn't quote those specs! In fact, he never does get around to quoting ANY specs! So one thing is for sure, if you get a pair and you don't like them there is no way you can return them based on them not meeting the stated specs because there are none!

I use Home Depot 12 gauge stranded speaker wire - for all my speaker wire runs. I buy it by the 250' spool for about $50. That makes it about $.20 a foot - as compared to the Anti-Cable at $5.00 a foot! Another quote from Paul's web site " Since they virtually eliminate the most common problems of typical speaker cables (usual sonic signatures, and high prices) they have been named the 'ANTI-CABLES'". He eliminated high price cables? I guess there is no HD near Paul's house. For most applications the 12 gauge is probably overkill. (BTW, Paul's cables are 12 gauge solid core copper.) 12 gauge has a low enough resistance that it will not have any delirious effects in any speaker run I am likely to have to make. This way I only have to stock one size wire and one size crimp lugs.

So, that is why I call "magic cable" speaker wires snake oil. You will get me off my HD 12 gauge when someone invents affordable room temperature super conducting wire. Those "magic cables" will lower the resistance!

One of the best articles on speaker wire I have seen is this one - well worth reading.

Rant over. Any questions?

[DrWho]

I've got a paper article here somewhere that talks about that home depot wire and does provide a very good reason not to go with it...it has to do with the fact that the cable jacket and copper wiring, when combined with the air, causes a slow chemical reaction that basically oxidizes the copper. This of course is bad because it causes the wire connections to be less conductive. There is an easy fix though; when you see green, chop it off and reconnect. The article provides two other wire alternatives that cost just slightly more than the HD stuff but don't have this problem. I'll see if I can't get it scanned or something...it's really a very interesting article.

For the record, I think it took like 3 months for a measurable change in conductivity, but like 3 years for an audible change.

I wonder if tinning the tips of the wire might be another possible solution???

[scriven]

Hi Doc,

I remember seeing that article too. I have not see the problem. I think the oldest connection I have here using the HD wire is about 4 years old. I just inspected it and it looks fine. (If I thought it sounded bad it would have been ousted long ago!) I am guessing that the problem is that the jacket is not making an airtight seal with the copper. Like I said, I am not seeing that problem. Maybe the author lived in an area with a more corrosive atmosphere. I could see how things that work here in the Midwest may not do so well on the Florida cost.

Tinning might help since it will melt the insulation and hopefully make a good seal with the wire.

The spool I have now was made by Carol. (I don't know what the prior reels were and the 4 year old runs were defiantly from a prior reel.) Even if I started seeing problems with this stuff I would just find a source for Belden's 12 gauge stranded. I would not turn to magic wire. Remember, I can completely replace everything I have installed 20 times before the parts costs reach magic land!

[awsjr]

Paul Speltz is not alone in the approach to a solid core, thin insulation coating to wire .... some of the reasons are identical....

http://www.referenceaudiomods.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?store_code=RAM&screen=PROD&product_code=ACT_1F_WIRE

[Dylanl]

----------------

On 5/26/2005 1:17:46 AM scriven wrote:

So, that is why I call "magic cable" speaker wires snake oil. You will get me off my HD 12 gauge when someone invents affordable room temperature super conducting wire. Those "magic cables" will lower the resistance!

One of the best articles on speaker wire I have seen is

this one

- well worth reading.

Rant over.

Any questions?

----------------

I have also heard of Doctors giving patients Sugar pills for their pain. You know what, the pain went away.

So, applying that reasoning to the cable debate I do believe people hear a difference but sadly most times because they want to.

Have you ever looked at the back of one of your Woofers?? Notice the very very thin wire that runs around and around ( you are talking a lot of footage )?? What is that doing to the initial signal after it has been run to through the crossover? I would say much more than 6 ft of speaker wire could.

Buy the way I do sell magic pills to anyone who wants to feel better (gel caps are extra). I think I have also sold a few bridges in my time (sorry Brookylen already gone). The funniest thing is that the buyers loved what they bought and I was glad to sell it. If everyone's happy no foul.

So, is wire a scam, to me yes but to others it is the best money they ever spent. It is all a matter of perspective. Mind over matter. Try to tell those patients that took the sugar pills that they were not cured. I hope you are getting my line of reasoning.

I think Zman has found his pot of gold and I am glad for him. It just may be hard to convince many of us crusty old Klipsch farts.

Edit: I will not speak for others, so just call me the crusty old fart

[sunnysal]

yup wires are a scam, just like those ridiculous caps and resistors they try to sell you, or worse yet those expensive crossovers using nice coils, what a joke! anyone who buys anything but a teac/tripath chip amp is a fool!

[Dylanl]

To each his own.

[sunnysal]

a bird in the hand...lol

[3dzapper]

On low level signals wires, cables or interconnects, whatever, do indeed make a difference.

Take last night for example. I was setting up my TT with a Benz Gold cart through a Carver MC step up transformer into the phono of the Blueberry. Wanting the best sound I sat in the back room for an hour and a half building a pair of interconnects with white Teflon insulated, silver plated wire with a silver plated braid shield. To minimize waste I made them 18" long. Proud of myself, I installed them and started to play an LP. There was an overbearing siblance region. I changed the VTA, Nada. Input impedence to the tranny, Nada.

I said to myself "I need more capacitance in the cable". Not feeling like building a new pair at midnight, I remembered a 6' pair of Monster® Cable interconnects that my daughter had given me. I installed them and the siblance problem was gone but then too was the life of the music. Like a wall was between me and the Khorn. Grrrr!

Then I went over to my other system and took a pair of 3' interconnects I had built previously from blue Belden wire. BINGO!!! the overpowering siblance was deminished while the sounds of Carlos Santana played pure.

I will say something positive about those Monster® wires, they have nice RCA ends. I'll be using them to make a new pair of Blues.

Rick

[jnorv]

The real question is why pay some one else for something you can do yourself for little money. His speaker cables are nothing more than 12 ga mag wire with spade connectors. I have been making my own IC's by wraping 24 ga mag wire around 3/8 caulk backer and terminating them into Eichman (sp) bullet plugs. I am not sure that this is worth the while. My intor to altec horns was a trip to the ChiTown horn meet where one guty was driving his A7's with a Gainclone and using 24 ga twisted pairs terminated with Rat Shack RCA's. Not bad.

Jim N

[bitece]

----------------

On 5/26/2005 10:08:22 PM jnorv wrote:

The real question is why pay some one else for something you can do yourself for little money. His speaker cables are nothing more than 12 ga mag wire with spade connectors. I have been making my own IC's by wraping 24 ga mag wire around 3/8 caulk backer and terminating them into Eichman (sp) bullet plugs. I am not sure that this is worth the while. My intor to altec horns was a trip to the ChiTown horn meet where one guty was driving his A7's with a Gainclone and using 24 ga twisted pairs terminated with Rat Shack RCA's. Not bad.

Jim N

----------------

Huh? What'd he say?

[scriven]

I think he said, with my comments in parentheses:

The Anti-Cable speaker cables are nothing special. (I totally agree!) Then added that he makes his own interconnect cables and details some of the method and parts used. He is not sure it is worth the effort to make his own cables. (If he his happy with them I think it is well worth the effort.) He first heard Altec Voice of the Theater A7s at a Chicago horn meeting and goes on to describe some of the equipment that was driving them.

Hope that helps!

[Nklipsch]

-- beliefs --

Your welcome to buy expensive things and hear a difference if you wish,but I cant afford this luxury.

My standpoint is that abx testing reveals the truth. This is my belief,its a cheaper belief than magic cables(haha),but as to which belief reflects reality,I dont know. Subjectivists say abx tests simply dont show whats actually happening,while objectivists state that well done abx tests are truthful, and pyschoacoustics explain alot of interesting things.

-Im a student with large student loan so I attack the major distortion offendors first-room and speakers.

In conclusion : aslong as we respect others beliefs,whether in audio or religion itself,people will get along ok,and this discussion will be an endless loop

Mike.e

[sunnysal]

just want to mention that the same people whio refuse to "believe" in cables should not replace any capactitors, resistors, inductors or pots/attentuators in there amps, preamps and crossovers; it accomplishes the same thing, or not, depending on your mood...funny how people pooh-pooh one thing and do the other...always baffles me. tony