klipschorn and Welbourne DRD45/DRD300

[kilowattski]

Hi,

Sorry if this has already been talked to death...I did a quick search and was not able to find much.

I'm trying to decide between Welbourne DRD45 amps or DRD300b amps and to drive my Klipshorns. I'm hoping to hear from others who have this setup. I will need a preamp as well, but that's a different topic.

How would one compare the sound of 45 tube versus 300b tube amplification?

Thanks

Dave

[mike stehr]

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On 5/14/2005 5:46:55 PM kilowattski wrote:

Hi,

Sorry if this has already been talked to death...I did a quick search and was not able to find much.

I'm trying to decide between Welbourne DRD45 amps or DRD300b amps and to drive my Klipshorns. I'm hoping to hear from others who have this setup. I will need a preamp as well, but that's a different topic.

How would one compare the sound of 45 tube versus 300b tube amplification?

Thanks

Dave

----------------

IMO, I like the tone of a 45 over the few 300B's I have listened to. And you still may have a chance of finding NOS 45's if you wanna roll output tubes.

With 300B, you are pretty much stuck with new production tubes....unless you want NOS WE 300B's....good luck!

Doesn't Welborne give a guy TJ 300B's or something?

The 45 has a awesome tone, but not much power either....2A3 kinda makes up the difference.

300B has the most power of all, a lush sound, but not quite as euphonic as a 2A3 or 45.

300B has more boogie factor.

45 would probably have best tone, but won't do Rap or grindcore without pinching pretty easy.

Concerned about tone or power?

[kilowattski]

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On 5/14/2005 6:24:26 PM mike stehr wrote:

IMO, I like the tone of a 45 over the few 300B's I have listened to. And you still may have a chance of finding NOS 45's if you wanna roll output tubes.

With 300B, you are pretty much stuck with new production tubes....unless you want NOS WE 300B's....good luck!

Doesn't Welborne give a guy TJ 300B's or something?

The 45 has a awesome tone, but not much power either....2A3 kinda makes up the difference.

300B has the most power of all, a lush sound, but not quite as euphonic as a 2A3 or 45.

300B has more boogie factor.

45 would probably have best tone, but won't do Rap or grindcore without pinching pretty easy.

Concerned about tone or power?

----------------

I'm looking for good spectral balance, good transparancy, good resolution,

an open non-electronic liquidity (midrange, lower treble), good sound staging

with layering and depth and spectral reach at both ends.

I listen to 60's and 70's rock, jazz, new age, some opera (female vocals).

I don't play music super loud, so hopefully the flea power of DRD45's will not be an issue. The room the 2 Khorns are in is 18' X 22' X 12'. The khorns are on the 18' wall pushed into the corners tightly. (Its a long story, but I could not get the khorns on the 22' wall where they really belong).

Are 45 tubes still in production (I may be confusing them with 2A3s)? One of them (2A3 or 45) may be out of production.

[leok]

Parallel Feed "parafeed" is, in my opinion, a preferable approach for tube SET output. All of the amps at "bottlehead.com" are parallel feed.

The "Paraglow" and "Parabee" are two recommended examples.

Leo

[spaaaz]

Having owned the DRD45,paraglow,parabee,laurel 300b amps I would say that for your listing of prefered music the 300b is going to give you the most ooomph.the 45 may be a bit to light for loud rock but is a great sounding tube and my favorite of the three,ymmv,the welborne kits are by far the easiest to build with superb directions and drawings,the bottlehead kits are top notch but may be a bit harder to build unless you have previous experience.

[kilowattski]

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On 5/14/2005 8:06:18 PM spaaaz wrote:

Having owned the DRD45,paraglow,parabee,laurel 300b amps I would say that for your listing of prefered music the 300b is going to give you the most ooomph.the 45 may be a bit to light for loud rock but is a great sounding tube and my favorite of the three,ymmv,the welborne kits are by far the easiest to build with superb directions and drawings,the bottlehead kits are top notch but may be a bit harder to build unless you have previous experience.

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Hi Spaaaz,

What kind of speakers are you listening to with the DRD45, paraglow, parabee, laurel 300b amps? Are they as efficient as Khorns?

As an aside, I wonder how the DRD45 compares to a Cary 300SEI integrated with the 300b tube.

From your post it sounds like the 45 sounds better to you than the 300b, but the you are pointing out the volume (loudness) limitations of the 45 tube.

Thanks

[mike stehr]

"Are 45 tubes still in production (I may be confusing them with 2A3s)? One of them (2A3 or 45) may be out of production."

Yes there is new production 45 tubes. From what I understand, there is more current production with respect to 45 than 2A3...who knows.

I dunno if there is budget-priced currently made 45's out there, I know there is some rather spendy ones.....

[Daddy Dee]

One thing I've heard (on this forum) about the DRD's is that they are more synergistic with the preamp than the Moondogs or other Welborne designs.... meaning that they would sound good with some preamps and disappointing with others. Sorry, I don't have a clue as to which preamp would be a good match with them.

The posts above ring true with the difference between sound with 2A3 and 300b SET. I prefered the sound of the 2A3's over the 300b's, but the 300b's are capable of more dbs.

I've been really pleased with the flea powered SE OTL's at 1.5 wpc, though I'm now running a pair of those bridged at 4wpc and like them even more. There were some times the 1.5 wpc wasn't quite enough for what I wanted to hear.

[spaaaz]

I used the bottlehead straight 8s and also the lowther hedlund horns and big fun horns,as far as purity goes I would say the 45 with the 2a3 a close second,of course with klipschorns you would have a bit more eff. so you may be very happy with just 1.5 or 3 watts,I would say that IMHO the drd or bottlehead amps would outperform the cary

[ben.]

The DRD45 can be converted to run 2A3 by simply changing a few resistors, according to the Welborne Labs site.

[spaaaz]

yes and you could wire in a switch to make it super easy to swap.

[dubai2000]

When it comes to preamps I am always surprised how well the DRD45s work with something quite unexpected (at least in my dictionary)....my McIntosh MX110. I honestly didn't expect this and even though the DRD/Transcendent Sound GG is a bit more transparent, there is something in the tone of the MX110 which I find very 'seductive' (but then I belong to those people who really don't find the MX110 inferior to more modern preams - different? yes, but to MY ears not inferior).

Wolfram

[ShapeShifter]

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On <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" /><?xml:namespace prefix = u1 />5/16/2005

11:02:08 AM

dubai2000 wrote:

When it comes to preamps I am always surprised how well the DRD45s work with something quite unexpected (at least in my dictionary)....my McIntosh MX110. I honestly didn't expect this and even though the DRD/Transcendent Sound GG is a bit more transparent, there is something in the tone of the MX110 which I find very 'seductive' (but then I belong to those people who really don't find the MX110 inferior to more modern preams - different? yes, but to MY ears not inferior).

Wolfram

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My experience was very similar last year when I had to use my Conrad-Johnson PV14L Line and Phono Stages with the DRD 45 amps.

While my Cary

SLP-94P Preamp was away for modification, the 45s performed well with the CJ equipment, not as neutral or open as with the Cary

preamp, and far too warm for my taste. However, coupled with the 45s, the CJ preamp, Phono Stage and Khorns did allow the music to take center stage when listening.

The remote volume control and component switching were nice conveniences too.

I found the opposite for the CJ components when coupled with the Laurel

300Bs.

The Laurels, CJs and Khorns had a musical signature that was too dark, they also seemed to lack life in their musical presentation.

For me, the 300Bs were at their absolute best when they were coupled with the Cary and Khorns.

With the right tubes and preamp, the 300Bss are a true knock-out.

I do feel they are no match for the musical prowess of the DRD 45s.

They seem to float like a butterfly and sing like an angelic flea.

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Wes

[Erik Mandaville]

Wolfram's DRD 45s were here before being shipped to him in Germany, and I was fortunate to have had the chance to listen to them after I installed an upgrade of the 6N1P cathode resistor bypass cap (to a Black Gate) and an oil over the large stock solen in the Ultrapath cathode return position on the output.

First and foremost, I was literally astonished by the amazingly low noise floor of this amp for a directly AC heated triode amp. There was almost no residual noise whatever, and in fact measured extremely low -- lower in fact than the Moondogs and modified JFL Horus amps (on which I also installed an Ultrapath output).

Having built Kudret's DRD 2A3s, I think I may actually prefer the very airy and clean quality of the 45, and wonder that this sonic attribute may be the result of maybe slightly less low-end ability due to the lower output. I had only briefly listened to the amps with the stock Elna Cerafine bypass cap and Solen 'Ultrpath capacitor' (I don't really care for that nickname, but that's what Ron. W. calls it....), and was not able to get a strong handle on the difference between that arrangement and the upgrade capacitors.

I agree with Leo on the parafeed vs more conventional SE circuits, but I must say that the DRD 45, and now the Moth Audio I built from parts sent to me along with a chassis from the same company, can give my parafeed 2A3 amps a very serious run for their money. In fact I was hoping to use the Moth stereo 2A3 amplifier as the main L/R amp with the Lexicon processor, but the match was not nearly as good as with either the modded Horus or Teac digital amp (which, in terms of the cost/performance ratio, nearly stomps every amp I have -- sadly enough.) Dean mentioned the curious thing about that amp (Teac) in that it sound like neither an SS or vacuum tube design, and simply makes very realistic and seemingly almost tangible music.

Quality-wise, the Welborne Labs are truly outstanding, and better by far with respect to passive and active parts than Bottlehead stuff -- IMO. Granted, Electronic Tonalities (I mean Bottlehead) does offer parafeed technology as well as the very good quality MagneQuest transformers, but the fit and finish of Welborne's products are superb, heavy, with a sort of professional quality about them. KH used to describe the Foreplay as a kid's science project, which is really sort of true in fit-n-finish dept., but it is a really great sounding preamp nonetheless. The cost is kept low to keep it affordable, and so it's basically impossible to change the chassis, top plate etc. from what it is now. It's really a sort of learner's platform kit, and has brought many interested DIYers into tube preamp and amp building.

I'd love to hear a 300B DRD sometime, which was the very first version of the amp designed by Jack Eliano -- who also makes the power and OPTs used in Welborne products, as well as the enormous output transformers used in the Moth Si2A3 I built over the last Holidays.

Erik

[Erik Mandaville]

Kilowatksi: Sorry I forgot to mention: The small output of the 45 is nothing to sneeze at! It does not have the bass slam that a little more power can offer, but with Klipschorns in our 16 X 21 X ummmmmm 10 or so listening room, produced very good SPLs cleanly.

Erik

[tillmbil]

Hey Wolf, sorry to ask again, but what is your tube compliment and location/position on the MX110? You are going to make me take that heavy sucker back out of the moth balls again.

[ShapeShifter]

I wonder if the DRD 300B amps are also less sensitive as to the type of preamp thats connected. I haven't heard the DRD 300Bs, nor the 2A3s new or old versions, but would love to.

[Colin]

great advice, wish I knew enough to have said the same things!

[Erik Mandaville]

Shapeshifter:

Thanks for bringing up something I forgot to mention. We had no problem at all driving the either the DRD 2A3 or 45 amps with a very low output impedance preamplifier, but some have, which seems to have more often been the case with the 2A3 version. The 45 was/is a really wonderful sounding tube, and the monoblocks I worked on here were a great match. I tried to remember if Wolfram's Grounded Grid preamp from Transcendent Sound was here at the same time, and I had listened to the two together. I think it was my own preamp -- but regardless, the match was excellent.

In a general sense, as JFL also indicated with his Seth amplifier, I think I would suggest a preamp with as low and output impedance as possible. Jeff's Seth also uses a paralleled 6SN7, which means that the other sections of the tube are probably paralleled as well (I need to go back and check the schematic on that. The DRDs use a single 6N1P, with grids, cathodes, and plates paralleled, the cathode resistor being bypassed by a high quality electrolytic. Like tonsils used to be, the bypass can be yanked out if so desired without disturbing the performance. Some do prefer that, as well.

Lower output impedances assist in 'driving' associated possible cable and Miller capacitance effects of subsequent stages; and I think the DRDs would benefit from a using a preamplifier with as low an output impedance as possible.

Erik

[dubai2000]

William,

good question. The tubes that can be changed without having to align the unit (tuner section) again are basically located on the left-hand side (looking from the front): V13/14 (phono) - two 12AX7 - currently I use some Teslovaks E83CC. I know that this brand has got some bad reputation among some tube users, but the tube works very well for me (the unit came with original TFKs -mostly - and those Teslovaks sound superior to my ears).

V15 is also a 12AX7 - and again I prefer a Teslovak to a more recent TFK.

V16-17 are 6U8s. The original TFKs didn't convince me either, I tried some Sylvanias (okay) but got stuck with a pair of (original) Siemens&Halske tubes.

I assume the Teslovaks could be similar to JJ ECC83S. Those are supposedly a copy of the TFK ECC803S frame-grid 12AX7 which are meant to be excellent.

Actually one of these days I'll plan on getting some of those JJs in order to hear if they live up to their reputation.

Hope that info will be useful.

Wolfram