ALK Cornscala with K401 or Trachorn

[Al Klappenberger]

jw:

I don't know about the K600. I suppose it has a difraction component.

If you liked the upgrade to my universal replacement network, you'll love the Trachorn. I think a better horn makes a biger improvement then the network upgrade! The ES networks are the second step.

Al K.

[jwc]

I dug up this post because I finally got around to some testing. I've stopped building for awhile and finally getting around to showing myself what I have put together "objectively".

Right now, I still have the K77, Atlas(K55)/K401, K33E drivers. The network is the ALK B made by Dean G.

Have an RTA setup runnin' at 1/24 octave through an Audigy sound card. The Behringer ECM8000 mic and UB802 mixer are calibrated. The total SPL could be a little off but the plot attached is more for a "relative" response. It is pretty much as predicted. The mic is one meter from the speaker. No, I didn't take the speaker outside to test.

Note: The mid driver isn't crossed at 400Hz but to the standard build of an ALK B crossed at 600Hz. In the future, will see what this looks like compared to crossing at 400Hz. Also, later, will hopefully incorporate the Trachorn[].

[jwc]

bump

[G.Kennedy]

bumpage .... The link to the site with the drawings is dead ... any chance I can get a pdf via email

[jwc]

I'll dig it up tonight when I get home. I took the link off the server

jc

[G.Kennedy]

Gracias

[jwc]

Here is a PDF. See if this works?

I have an addition file that shows all the individual panel cuts.

jc

cs4.pdf

cs4.pdf

[G.Kennedy]

...............  See if this works?............................

jc

Perfect ..... thanks ........ I will keep you posted ... but probably not building til the fall.

[jwc]

I hope it works for you.

I will post the wood panel cuts tonight. I think on that particular project, I went to Home Depot with the list and they made all the cuts for cheap. There were some areas that were slightly off but a little sanding took care of that. The project was very inexpensive.

jc

[G.Kennedy]

My source here in Los Angeles for Baltic Birch in 13ply is Anderson Plywood .... there milling fees are very reasonable .... the cuts for this project will be less than $10.

I am only going to be making the bottom half ... so it looks like a box with internal dimensions of 21.5 x 23.75 x 22.375.

Shouldn't be too bad .... probably going to use Crites Woofs ...

I got these from fleabay the other day for $11 ... so the parts accumulation begins.

[IndyKlipschFan]

Do you still use these JW???.... Great pics.. Great observations too!

Did you ever consider using the Cornwall size box (36" high x 25 1/2" wide x and 15 1/2" deep) for the k 33 woofer (Woofer cut out only) and put the tops in a separate box on top like a split La Scala ( 23 3/4" wide 12" high and 24 1/2 deep) I know it would stick out the rear a bit but who cares? If needed, we could build a brace or something?

For what it is worth.... That size box has been used by Klipsch and JBL and others with a 15" woofer. So something must be magical about that size box for the woofer to work well volume wise using a bass reflex system via front-mounted slot ports FYI in the Klipsch site the CW III is DIMENSIONS 35.75" (90.81cm) H x 25.313" (64.29cm) W 15.5" (39.37cm) Deep (Please experts chime in here please!!) Why did you elect to change it? Was it to match the size of the other La Scalas looks wise??

So if you follow my logic here,. you now have a split top end on top of a Cornwall box with the better shared k55v and 401 mid horn and the same k 77 tweeter. (Shared with the La Scala/Khorn too?) You also share some of the "Magic" of getting the mids and highs off of the ground like a K horn top end and it will fill the room better. For what is it worth, my K horn bottom is 39 inches before the top section sits on top of it..(Minus the spacer it is 11 1/2 inches tall too.) so your within 2 - 3 inches of being a K horn height too. (My personal opinion has always been the K horn sounds better, in part, because the mid and high end drivers are up in the air taller than "most" speakers too. They sound great seated and walking around the room too!)

Would we benefit from anything wise (You speaker building cabinet size volume experts??) keeping it where it is on a regular Cornwall with the ports on the bottom? or up like the kpt 535 cinema line? (Which I know does not use the k 33 woofer and only goes to 50 Htz...) I assume keep it lower where the Cornwall has it..????

I think the goal is we want that full clean Cornwall bottom end to be like the older Cornwall I or newer Cornwall III frequency response wise at 34 Hz, AND a better upper end? And for what it is worth we also share some of the same love in taste of music too. I know why and understand why you want a thumping solid lower end too!

Roger

[IndyKlipschFan]

OK, so I let it get the best of me.. Everyone is asleep and I am awake and it is 2:55 AM, and I just got putting all my speakers back together...

I did, indeed, put the split La Scala tops on top of a 1967 decorator Cornwall vertical, so I left it standing up with the "dream top" on top of it. Unscrewed the k 33p woofer from the crossover inside the Cornwall and wired it to the input of the low pass x over of a split La Scala top. (Where it would go to the woofer doghouse normally in a split La Scala bottom.)

OK, on Bonnie Raitt, TERRIBLE with Dave Mathews.. .listened to some Piano very nice, but in all three cases a little shy on the bottom end. (Sure you can add bass, but not the same. Tried some other music... Just not good... so so but not good....) So the obvious conclusion is the bass output needs to be upped and perhaps the internal x over of the LS top section down even to a Cornwall woofer is not correct. (I know this isn't perfect, this was an experiment.) []

I got a little nervous and re hooked up the Cornwall... mm wow nice... this time propped up on a chair so the mids and highs are in fact Horizontal. Wow... MUCH better.. I know people say you can have them either way, but to me they ALWAYS sound better when the horns are going horizontal so I kept the Cornwall on it's side in a chair. mmmmm

The left is the vertical Cornwall now horizontal. The La Scala top is back on the right side on a horn loaded bottom (Think K horn) bottom with a k 33 in it. It sounds wonderful... Life and harmony and peace in the land is great!

Can I go to bed now? I might be just a littl etired tomorrow, oh well... This was FUN!

[G.Kennedy]

Umm... so ... If I read that right you used the AA crossover in your La Scala HF unit.???? The standard issue on Cornscalas is to use the Cornwall crossover ... slightly modified.

Give it another go using the Type B in the mix.

[jwc]

Roger. If you look back in this thread, you asked that same question in 2005.

My response will be similar to then but now after fiddling with several DIY and going through several networks, I am more solid about the decision of what I did.

No, I no longer have those. They were the fronts of my HT for about 2 years but I really never do the HT. They were two channel use mostly.

People have put horns on top of the CW standard box. Been done before the Cornscala build concept came around. Yes it looks awkward as the horns will stick out of the back. Honestly, If I was gonna just put horns in a custom separate enclosure on the top, I would use the 511. BUT, I wanted something that looks nice where they sat. Now this will get your goat. I don’t want those mids and tweets way up in the air like a Khorn where I sit in that particular room. These are low sitting theater seats and the La Scala and the Cornscala were firing right at my ear level. My LS II’s sit there now.

Whether someone would disagree with me or not on this…..don’t care. I would have a LS II (another pair) before Khorns for this position. The LS size box works perfectly here. I made some Cornscala dbbs with that “height logic”. These were in a bigger room and I sat at a “cocktail table” to be at ear level. The top hats were also on a 12.3 cu ft box so I had no choice.

One design goal was to keep the drivers close together. The depth is just like the La scala so the K55 is flush with the back like a la scala.

The Cornscala build in this thread is nice as it has the EXACT motorboard width and port positioning as my late 84 Cornwalls. The internal volume is exactly the same minus the tweet and midhorn/driver volume. I dunked those in water to get the exact volume displacement.

For quick results, yes just stick those split tops on the top of a Corwall and be done with it. You have your stuff behind a screen anyway. But you don’t have a network for that to work. I went through 5 different networks all built by me. So fresh caps and all. I have my opinion on what I think is best but this is a preference not a rule. So you have a lot of options.

I don’t speak up about the Cornscala much anymore when people bring it up in threads. I still get quite a few emails about it. I’ll say what I’ve said before:

The Cornscala is a no brainer for cost effected great results. The best improvement is the loss of the K600. You can leave to XO point still at 600Hz and there is still a major improvement. So a Type B network would be fine for starters. The other tweaks are just a little more gravy.

The Cornscalas I had easily best my La scala I’s. The bass was fast (with the right network) and went low enough w/o a sub. The original La scala has little bass presence in that particular room. To be honest, I bought my LS II’s because they were serial number 1 and 2. Sort of like a collectors item. That was the day I ditched the Cornscalas as I had no room at the time to store them. The LS II’s were a surprise in bass. I had never auditioned them before I bought them. I didn’t get rid of the cornscalas because there was something wrong. I have been through a bunch of speakers since then and it is my instinct to try new things.

Not sure if I answered you question or not w/o rambling. Do you have a Cornwall network sitting around that you could use with the Split top La Scala top on a Cornwall? The included networks with the La scala won’t work.

jc

[IndyKlipschFan]

Roger. If you look back in this thread, you asked that same question in 2005.

Yes I did..That was when I was going back n forth what to use in my own HT. I had a lot going on in 2005, it was a good time to be on the board and ask a lot of questions too. At that time, I had nothing to compare it to. What you achieved was/ is wonderful. Maybe my mistake last night was using the pro version industrial La Scala AL-3 network which the low pass was designed to go to the doghouse bass bin... and expecting the k 33p woofer in a Cornwall cabinet to sound good. It was ok.. but not in any way like it sounds in a Cornwall B or looks like a H network in my older 1967 verticles./ So your right, wrong network. Maybe next time I will use the Cornwall network and see how it plays just with the bigger horn.. late at night I had not thought of that.. Good point!

BTW.... This is not for my HT, I was just playing around. I am very, ok EXTREMELY happy with my HT. I lucked out with 7 split all in the same year same network La Scala's from two different purchases one in Cleveland, Ohio and the other in Miami, Florida. (Those were road trips! LOL) Most others that hear it, are happy with it too. [] even with my "elevated tops" to your ears. (Which also hit you in the middle of your hearing level too, btw.) I laser pointed them just to the left n right of the two center seats in a 4 person HT seating arrangement. To me.....They sound much better toed in and up a little.... I spent a lot of time wresting with it too. Maybe someday you can hear for yourself too? I realise at some point, too far apart they would sound bad too. Some of it is luck maybe? A Gremma anti vibration board from Aurelex and a standard milk carton with a 1/2 inch pad then the split tops just seemed to work and open them up and like you said put them at ear level while seating too. Anyhow...

Now this will get your goat. I don’t want those mids and tweets way up in the air like a Khorn where I sit in that particular room. These are low sitting theater seats and the La Scala and the Cornscala were firing right at my ear level. My LS II’s sit there now.

Get my goat??? LOL.. Relax.... That is the goal in HT seating IMO too, you do want them at ear level. So yes, a Cornscala on top, would be quite high. You say you do not do HT, yet you use HT seats? Is this for a family room? Either way, I understand what your saying too. In a lot of ways were on the same page on the hight issue. You would have to have a BIG room to use Klipschorns in a HT because of the height issue and where would you place the center too? Maybe stadium seating lol? Get your ear levels at the mid horn or if in a perfect world right in between it and the tweeter while seating, and you will experience a huge improvement in your La Scala's, they just open up. So many people tilt them up to get the same result but I worry that the bass then lacks? BTW, I think I heard your actual La Scala II's either in Hope or in Indy in the old demo room. Besides looking fantastic, they do sound better than older versions in that while I am not so sure the bass goes lower, it is perhaps less tubby because the cabinet is more rigid. What your hearing is more natural IMO. For music I agree, it is wonderful... The Pro Industrials La Scala's are more rigid too. You do not do HT, but if you did you still would need a sub with older or newer La Scala's . The KA 1000 amp and 2 of the THX 120 subs are a fantastic fit.

I wanna stop at this point and say I am a novice at all of this..(mods wise) but I understand the concepts... I have helped others hook things up, and design cross overs, (thank goodness they went electronic, much of this when I sang in bands throughout HS and college and beyond... I have ripped things out to replace things my whole life. But you get away from this hobby and you forget this and that.. but it is still partially there.....In your head. So yes, I am not totally inept, I have built some crossovers before, but done so with a map of what to do. I have no testing equipment to judge if it was that a smart move or not? Just my ears. And your ears will fool you too, I understand that. Especially late at night. LOL

The Cornscala is a no brainer for cost effected great results. The best improvement is the loss of the K600. You can leave to XO point still at 600Hz and there is still a major improvement. So a Type B network would be fine for starters. The other tweaks are just a little more gravy.

That was my point... Maybe this is still a great mod with a Corn Bottom and a La Scala type top. That is, with the right x over too. hehehehe

I am not trying to waste your time, just curious like everyone else. I will try it next time with the Cornwall network instead. The La Scala network did not work, your right.

Roger

[jwc]

You say you do not do HT, yet you use HT seats? Is this for a family room?

That was original intention. I had a full McIntosh setup with Klipsch speakers and I hardly ever watched movies or concerts. I then sunk all my beans in 2 channel type equip in two different rooms. The low seats are basically me sittin there lounging, jammin 2 channel and surfing the net on my DLP. I never watch TV and very rarely watch a movie. If my kids watch movies....we have a place for that.

You do not do HT, but if you did you still would need a sub with older or newer La Scala's .

No doubt.

Yep, I bet if you get your hands on a type B, you would like the Cornscala. I would still be working with that concept, but after realizing the K402 from the cinema lineup is awesome, I pretty much had to do some config with it to satify me. I'm still dorkin around with that. I have no problems with bass reflex....that is for sure.

I am not trying to waste your time, just curious like everyone else.

Roger. Are you serious? You aren't wasting my time. I'm honored the thread was dug back up out of interest. It would be great to report your results here. I never followed up here with all of my network experience with this setup. I probably should have.

BTW, Let me know if you ever become interested in my KPT-904-LF bass bins. At some point, I'm sure I will upgrade again (sadly soon: I can't stop).

jc

[G.Kennedy]

...................................

That was my point... Maybe this is still a great mod with a Corn Bottom and a La Scala type top. That is, with the right x over too. hehehehe 

I am not trying to waste your time, just curious like everyone else. I will try it next time with the Cornwall network instead. The La Scala network did not work, your right.................. 

To me ... the beauty of what you did last night ....was confirm IN YOUR ROOM, WITH YOUR GEAR and YOUR EARS .... that he AL network did not work for YOU. So often in this hobby (at which I am a total novice) ... it is so easy to blindly follow the advice of others.

You can put that test in your memory bank as something that did not work .... and try the B xover next time ... making your own evaluation and ultimate decisions on sound quality .....

Good on ya'

[IndyKlipschFan]

G Kennedy.. To me ... the beauty of what you did last night ....was confirm IN YOUR
ROOM, WITH YOUR GEAR and YOUR EARS .... that he AL network did not work
for YOU. So often in this hobby (at which I am a total novice) ... it
is so easy to blindly follow the advice of others.

Thanks MIIIIIIIIIIIISTEEEEEERRRRRRR KENNEDY!!!!!!! KENNEDYYYYYYYY!!!!!!!!!!! (Sorry sometimes you never grow up and still have bad habits of liking things you should of grown out of but still love... WWE for me.. OK.. Now that I have embarrassed myself here. LOL)

Yes, OK, back to the topic.... What makes this so much fun sometimes... Sometimes you strike out.. Sometimes a home run!! The horn loaded bass bin (Think K horn type bottom with the La Scala top) is just amazing!! Wish I had 2 of them.... LOL.

One of my gripes with newbies is they get something say a Cornwall or La Scala and immediately say OK, even before they arrive, I need to switch x overs.. what do I need to do..etc etc before even listening to them for any length of time.. They might be quite happy with what is in there. And spending big bucks might not get them what they want at all. Then they start switching drivers n horns... before long it is not a Klipsch product at all.... Maybe they think Klipsch sucks or try and re modify something that really can't be re modified anymore. I understand the hobby of looking at and changing things, I also know sometimes it is a Frankensomething Klipsch Product too. The bottom line is in the end do you enjoy the process and also the results. Many people much like a kid who poors 10k in a car stereo in a car that is worth 3k always think it should bring 13- 15k...LOL.. As it rattles with pounding bass down your street LOL All I know is at 3 am, I wanna pull his butt over...LOL.

Always easy to follow others.. Sometimes they are on the right path and sometimes they might take you down the hole with them too! hehehehehe

Roger.

[IndyKlipschFan]

BTW, Let me know if you ever become interested in my KPT-904-LF bass
bins. At some point, I'm sure I will upgrade again (sadly soon: I
can't stop).

jc

What would you switch too? 2 15 inch beasts per cabinet??? The one with 4? LOL Please tell.

That 402 is a sweet horn speaker big as all get out...(Thats hoosier talk for OMG HUGE!!) But I bet sounds amazing too. with your 904's what else could you wish for in a direct reflex design? It is so good, it might work on a la scala bottom, a MWM bottom, or that system Jubilee cinema system too? [H]

Incorporating that into a home system would be a challenge, but also wow if you got it right, amazing IMO.

Roger

[jbsl]

G Kennedy.. To me ... the beauty of what you did last night ....was confirm IN YOUR ROOM, WITH YOUR GEAR and YOUR EARS .... that he AL network did not work for YOU. So often in this hobby (at which I am a total novice) ... it is so easy to blindly follow the advice of others.

What makes this so much fun sometimes... Sometimes you strike out.. Sometimes a home run!! Roger.

I agree completely! Sometimes you have to try something in your house, system even thought someone else did not like it. It may not work or it may work but the only way to know for sure it to try it.

I have 2004 La Scalas and never thought the bass did not go low enough for my tastes. That is until I got a pair of Fortes and heard the bass on them. Overall the Fortes sounded good but to me the problem with them is the opposite of the La Scala. The bass overpowers the mids and highs while the LS the mids and highs overpowers the bass.

Now RJMO(Remember Just My Opinion) So I wanted to figure out to use the bass from the Fortes with my LS. I use to have a Klipsch RSW 12 sub but I could never get it to sound right with the LS to my ears.

So I use two int amps in my system: Luxman L-505f(100 watts with a pre out and main in) and a Cayin TA 30 (35 watts with a sub out). So normally I run the pre out from the Lux to the Cayin and don't use the 100 watts from the Lux or the sub out from the Cayin.

So I unhooked the mid and tweeter horns from the crossover in the Fortes so they will only play the bass and hooked them up to the Luxman speaker terminals so they have 100 watts to draw from.

I then ran cables from the sub out on the Cayin to the main in on the Luxman. This set up allows me to use the volume on the Lux and it controls the volume for the LS and the F subs.

This worked out better than I had hoped for and sounds great!! I got the idea from the Cornscalas but did not want to build the new speaker cabnets. So this was a lot easier with very similar results as a Cornscal. Chorus and Cornwalls would work also for this set up.

I have a 15 x 15 x 8 room and have the LS on 6 1/2 inch risers in the corners with the Fortes on the inside of the LS.

I also run L & R cables from my AVR to the Cayin so I can use the LS / Fortes for home theater which works great. The RSW 12 went lower than the Fortes but the Fortes shake the windows with explosions so that is enough for me.

Sometimes experimenting can work out sometimes it does not.