Is an amp an amp? Car audio people, I need help

[Juba310]

Im going to be getting an RE sub in about a week (model: se12), and now the search for an amp to pair with it begins. I'm relatively new to car audio, so I would appreciate the expertise of someone who has some experience. On the website I listed, it has the sub I want rated at 600watts RMS/1200watts peak at 4ohms impedance. What kind of power am I looking at for being able to push this thing? I've been told I want something with around 400-600 watts, but I would like to confirm that.

Here's what I've narrowed it down to so far...

MA AUDIO M1889i 1x400W POWER AMPLIFIER

HIFONICS BRUTUS BX1500D CLASS D MONO 1500 WATT AMP

The Ma Audio is rated at 400 watts, and the Hifonics Brutus is rated at 500 watts, both at 4ohms. My main question is, does the brand of amp really matter when it comes to car audio? Specifically, with subwoofers? If there would be no large difference in sound, I'd much rather go with the cheaper, safer bet from Parts Express.

Answers, feedback, and maybe even reccomendations on a different amp would be really appreciated.

Thanks for reading.

[michael hurd]

How loud do you want it to play? The woofer you chose is fairly inefficient, listed spl is 86.1 db, no reference to how it is measured. Is the vc DCR 2.8 ohms? Is this a single or dual voice coil unit? If so, then are you planning on wiring them in series, or parallel?

Some older amplifiers that have stood up well in Spl competitions, where amplifiers are brutally tortured, are Mmats. A number of other companies also make quality units, US amps, and JL audio are others. It really boils down to what your need are, some are more flexible than others, IE: a 4 channel amp that can be bridged and run two higher power channels. A parametric equalizer is a nice feature, as well as a subsonic filter that is user adjustable.

You have the option if buying new, or used. Again, this is something that you have to look at.

[Juba310]

Thanks for the quick reply

I don't need this sub to be anything of worthy of a SPL competition, but I would like to have some fairly nice thump in my trunk. Forgive my inexperience, but I'm not sure what "is the vc DCR 2.8 ohms" means. On the site it says the subs are "dual 4ohm", so I'd assume that means a dual voice coil? Again, I am not sure what you mean by wiring in series or parallel.

Thanks for the names of brands to check into. I dont mind buying new or used, but I'd preferr to stay away from Ebay, I've had bad experiences there in the past.

I'm looking into a lot of the amps on Parts Express, and several of them say they can be bridged to achieve ratings in excess of 500wattsx1 into 4ohms, at sub $120 prices. This seems like a great deal to me. Would the difference between one of these amps and one which costs $200+ be noticeable for my application? Logically to me, it seem that since its merely for a sub in a car, it would not make a difference that justifies me spending hundreds more. Does that seem right to you or am I making a mistake?

Thanks.

[michael hurd]

VC = voice coil DCR = Dc resistance Basically, this is what you would measure with a volt-ohm meter. Well, we now know from what you say that there is two voice coils, and the dc resistance of each is 2.8 ohms.

There are a few ways that you could wire this up to one amplifier: Two coils in series to one amplifier or channel, Two coils in parallel to one amplifier or channel ( I would not recommend this, it is a very difficult load for an amplifier, very stressful on the output transformers ), or one coil on each channel of a two channnel amplifier.

If you need a chart on wiring in series or parallel, there are plenty of picture examples on the internet, and I do believe that Parts Express has a tutorial.

Most amplifiers sell for $ 1- 2 bucks a watt, some a little less or more. My advice, try to read as much on test reports as you can, like this one.

http://www.carsound.com/review_archive/amps/d300hc.html

[Frzninvt]

Car amps are certainly not created equal, and a better quality amp will produce better quality bass no doubt about it.

The HiFonics amps made today are junk! Once ZED audio stopped designing and building them they went right downhill.

MA Audio is not much to talk about either. I don't know what you are willing to spend. But some really good choices for 600W but at what ohm load? 4, 2, 1? If you are looking for like 750W @ 1 ohm I would look for a used MMats D100 it is small, very efficient and provides tons of clean bass.

I see you are looking at a 4 ohm load. OK, Ooops now I see that it is a DVC subwoofer with 4 ohm coils.

If you are looking for class A/B power with a minimum of 600W @ 4 ohms then pick up an Orion XTR-2150! The amps that I mention will produce the power they are truly rated at, I run an Orion XTR-2150 with a 1 Farad cap driving two Orion 10" NT2's in a sealed box and they hit like a sledgehammer. You could get a used XTR-2150 for around $200. You can get a new Orion 1000d digital 1000W power amp for $250 on eBay. An Orion 250 HCCA will also generate gobs of power even though it is rated at a mere 50W X 2, it doubles down the power as you drop the impedance and can generate 800W+ at an ohm. More if your battery and alternator can supply the current.

An older HiFonics Series VIII Zues would also be killer for a subwoofer. The Series VII and VIII were the best of the best HiFonics amps. The HiFonics Series VIII Hercules was designed to run a subwoofer.

If you go with one of my old school choices trust me you will be very happy. I think that there is an Orion XTR-2150 for auction on eBay right now as a matter of fact and I can attest to its durability. The one I have was in a car rollover it was mounted on the sub box that flew out of the car and smashed into pieces on the highway. The amps heatsink is all beat up and actually twisted and flexed. All I did was replace the input jacks and it powered right up and is still working to this day. Amazing!

[Juba310]

Great info, thankyou!

[Mighty Favog]

If money (and space) were no object I'd say check out McIntosh Labs:

http://www.mcintoshlabs.com/mcprod/shopdisplayproducts.asp?id=22&cat=Power+Amplifiers

[Juba310]

Space is not really and issue, however money is. I'm not even going to click that link... it'd make me too jealous

Thank you though.

[Juba310]

Okay, after taking into consideration the previous posts and looking around a bit more, heres what I've come up with:

ORION 6002 2 channel amplifier

This amp gives me 600x1 @ 4ohms, but is used from a low feedback ebay seller. Itll probably go up in price too (currently at 150 shipping included)

HIFONICS ZUES ZX4000 2 CHANNEL AMPLIFIER BRAND NEW

This amp gives me 400x1 @4ohm, is brand new, costs less, and has buy it now.

Orion 2150 SX 600 Watt AMp

This one claims 300x1 @4ohms, but is used. I read up somewhere and found that this model is the older version of the amp you amp you recomended earlier.

Do any of these jump out as a better deal? Since the watt difference is relatively minimal in reference to the difference in output it will produce (since double wattage is needed for 3db increase), which looks best? Or do you have any other brands you'd suggest?

[Frzninvt]

The Orion 6002 is junk, Orion was bought out by DEI unfortunately a few years ago and all the amps are nothing like they used to be.

The HiFonics amp you posted is from the newer HiFonics company and is junk.

The 2150SX is the older version of the amplifier that I have. The amp is rated at 150W X 2 @ 4 Ohms, 300W X 2 @ 2 Ohms, and 600W X 1 @ 4 ohms and keep in mind these are 12V ratings. The older Orion amplifiers have unregulated power supplies so the amp will easily put out over 600W X 1 at 13.8V and lots more if your charging system can keep up with it. An excellent choice! The only thing I dislike about the older amps is you have to connect to the wiring pigtails on them vs. the plug-in terminal type connectors on the XTR series. The sound quality of these amplifiers is top notch! S/N on that amp is like 110db. If you can get it for a good price it would definately be worth your while.

[Juba310]

What makes you say the new Orion amps are junk? I've looked over a few car audio forums, and the general consensus on them is that they are pretty decent. I trust the members on this forum more, but I'm just wondering how much a differnce it actually makes...

Also, the ebay seller for the 2150sx has it rated at 300x1 @ 4ohms... this contrasts with what you said.

[michael hurd]

I would buy an older Orion HCCA if I were intending to parallel the coils on one channel, they will stand up to a lot of abuse ( difficult load ). Also, see the older Soundstream amplifiers, either the Reference series, or the Rubicon series.

[Royster]

I have 4500 watts of orion poer in my avalanche and it is good. I would say that ebay can produce some great sounding and big power ZAPCO products for a good price.

Mcintosh, car audio is made by Clarion. Kind of a slap in the face to true mac owners.

[Juba310]

Quick question... hopefully quicker reply, ebay auctions are going fast...

What exactly do you mean when you say "the amp is junk".

Do you mean it will sh!t out on my fast, not hold up to its power rating, have distortion, sound bad, what? Does it really matter that much for a car sub? I'd understand for nice home audio, or even component speakers, but just for bass in a car, does it really matter?

Quick reply would be helpful.

[Frzninvt]

By junk I mean it is Chinese made garbage with garbage parts in them. The new Orion stuff does not hold a candle to the made in the USA stuff and the stuff that they produced while partnered with a/d/s was even better.

I have been in car audio since the mid to late 70's and I have heard just about all of it. I competed in IASCA for about 2-3 years from '94 - '96 and believe me when I tell you I know what sounds good.

Michael Hurd's other suggestions are good too! The older Soundstream amplifiers and Orion's HCCA amps are some of the best ever made along with the Series VIII HiFonics amps. The original Fosgate company was really good too before they changed the name to Rockford Fosgate.

For the money the older 2150 SX would be very tough to beat, the newer stuff is not built nearly as well. The guy's specs on the amp are wrong! I listed the correct specs in my post.

You can buy whatever the hell you want I am just telling you you wont match the quality of that old 2150SX with anything made in the last 5 years at that price point. I'll put my XTR Series Orion amps against anything made out there today and they won't come close to the sound quality.

[Juba310]

Sorry if I came off as questioning your knowledge... I just wanted to clarify a few things.

Thanks a ton for your info, I trust you and the people here over the yahoos on most other car audio forums. Im watching the ebay auction for the SX amp closely, but just have a gut feeling its going to get to a price where I cannot afford it. Hopefully it doesnt.

My second choice is the Orion HCCA amp, which by luck, happens to have one of the ebay retailers dealers just 20 miles from my house (the one they have is the newer, G4 model... these are still good right?). I've scoured the internet and it seems to me they've become fairly rare. I cannot find a bad review on this thing... it looks great. My only qualm is that it seems to be a little underpowered for what I'm looking for, but hear its greatly underrated. The dealer near my house is selling it for 229.99, so with tax I'd be walking out with it for just under 250 dollars.

[Gilbert]

Juba, heed frzin's advice. He definitely knows his car audio, and then some.

[Frzninvt]

The G4 HCCA model was right before or during the time Orion was being bought out by DEI. The HCCA line was designed to run at the lower ohm loads to fully utlizie there potential. If you are going to use a single Dual Voice Coil subwoofer with 4 ohm coils then the HCCA (High Current Capable Amplifier) may not be the best choice since you can only run it in 8 or 2 ohm mono and the HCCA amp will not be putting out the wattage you seek. What model HCCA are you talking about above? 225 HCCA, 250 HCCA?

An Orion 250 HCCA would put 400 watts minimum into a 2 ohm load, but they typically sell for more than the SX or XTR series amps.

You need an amp that puts out the most power at 4 ohms X 2 or 2 ohms X 1.

[Juba310]

The amp I planned on was the 225 model- Orion HCCA 225 G4, rated at 100x1@4ohms. With this amp combined with the sub I'm getting, I'd be producing 104.1 db @ 64 watts power (the sub's sensitivity is 86.1), not including box and other gains. Does this not seem like enough power to you? I'm not looking for SPL, but just some nice SQ that can reach a good volume. Since this amp is underrated, I figured it should be plenty... am I making an error somewhere in my thought process? Please correct me if I am.

I'll keep my eye on the 2150 though, keeping to your advice. However, if something goes wrong do you think I should be looking elsewhere than the HCCA as a second choice?

[Juba310]

Also, about how much should I be willing to pay for the 2150? There's one with a BIN option on ebay for $199+20 shipping.