A Khorn Epiphany realized Today !!

[triode]

i recently aquired a pair of Khorns. While I don't have proper corners yet, as I've got to do a remodeling project. None the less, I set up the Khorns. I did have one proper corner which I sealed one Khorn in and merely placed the other freestanding along a wall.

Well, they sounded just great, plenty of Bass! I turned the volume down on the one freestanding and sure enough it was a bit bass shy but still sounded great. I then flipped the volume to the one in the corner and all the bass was there.

- When playing both Khorns at equal volume, you cannot tell where the Bass is coming from, because the Bass wave is 32 feet long! The Khorns sound fabulous!

And here is the Epiphany! - You don't need two proper corners you only need One. This is the same principle as a Subwoofer. Which you can locate basically anywhere in the room and you only need one, because your ears cannot tell where the bass is coming from! So If you've got one good corner, get a pair of Khorns and let the other just free stand along a wall. After all Khorns were mono once also.

Would the Khorn sound better with both in corners? Probably. But the Khorns in one corner and one along the wall will absolutely crush a Pair of La Scalas, Belles, Cornwalls.

[3dzapper]

Welcome to the world.

I spent the day listening to the digital oldies station while I puttered around the house. Sure beats the transistor radio I had as a teenager!

[bkrop]

(as long as you listen to everything in mono, you won't miss the bass in the "weak" channel!)

[triode]

No, I listen to everything in stereo. And that is only why you only need one subwoofer

[BS Button]

I'm gonna sick Colter on you. You've just offended the "Cornwall Police". WE find it hard to imagine that a pair of Khorns with only one good corner can crush a pair of Cornwalls placed anywhere.

Glad you like your Khorns, however.

[edwinr]

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On 6/24/2005 4:53:03 PM triode wrote:

Would the Khorn sound better with both in corners?

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Yeah, they would. But if you can manage only one good corner at the moment, then that's fine. You may notice the cornerless Klipschorn to be a little bass shy on certain tracks that feature, say, an acoustic bass in that channel. You could always fix that later with a false corner.

I reckon that a Klipschorn running at 85 to 90% of it's potential is still a world beater.

Edit: Don't worry about the Cornwall cops. Rumour has it that the Keystone Cops are their role model.

[DrWho]

The problem here is that an unproperly sealed khorn (ie, no corner at all) also yields a significant drop in output in the 300Hz region as well...this alone should be very audible.

The problem with bass coming from just one side is that the overall mid and hi frequencies will then be a good 3dB if not 6dB louder than the bass section. I would guess that you don't listen to bass heavy music.

I personally claim that bass is directional (as well as others) and I wouldn't be able to handle the lopsidedness.

Though I can justify in my head why someone might consider it possible (300Hz range isn't super critical for music - the 6dB isn't true for every frequency of the bass bin, and the lopsidedness could get lost with the spatial cues in the recording).

[scotbuck]

Greetings,

I would think that having two proper corners would be best. Even though the bass frequencies aren't particularly directional, the placement of the *source* of these frequencies often is.

For example on many classical music recordings, the double-bass section is located far to one side. Similarly, some stereo jazz recordings have the bass player panned to one channel.

I suspect that if the source of the bass notes is coming from the speaker that doesn't have the corner, the fact that the the other speaker does have a corner might not be of much benefit.

Just a thought...

Take care,

Scott

[PrestonTom]

Triode, Congratulations on the K-Horns.

I believe that setting both of them into corners will improve the sound. This is based on various "experiments" that I have performed in my living room over the past years.

I appreciate your observations that a single one in the corner is sufficient in some respects, but there are some other attributes you might want to listen for also. Yes, you are correct to note that the lowest frequencies have a very very long wavelengths. As such, the directionality is not always well defined. As others have noted this is why a single sub-woofer can be sufficient. In addition to the directionality, the very low frequencies may (or may not) have a more uniform amplitude respsonse if both cabinets were in corners. The mids may also be affected.

Here is my thinking: at this end of the spectrum the amplitude response is dictated by not only what the cabinet can deleiver but ALSO the room acoustics (the amp etc are typically not the limiting factors). The contribution due to standing waves will be dominant. To remind yourself of this, simply play a continuous low frequency or very low frequency tone through the Kilpsch. Now walk around room. Depending on how low the frequency (in other words how long the wavelength) you will notice spots in the rom that may vary by as much as 10-15 dB at frequencies as high as 500 Hz (an ocatve above middle C on the piano or abour 4 times the voicing fundamental of a male voice). At lower frequencies, the variation can be around 20 dB. This is an approximation since I don't know the specifics of your enviroment. If you don't have a meter, you can ballpark the measure by remembering that 10 dB change in the physical measure is about a "doubling" in the subjective respose of "loudness" . That is, does it sound "twice as loud" or "half as loud".

I have digressed... My point is that the standing waves can be minimized by adding a second speaker (in the corner). Unless you are unlucky, the standing waves from each cabinet (source) will not cancel and add at the same locations. The net efect will be that the sound (amplitude) may be a bit more uniform across location and frequency. You will probably also notice that the mids are bit better in the stability of their imaging also. Since each cabinet will have a similar geometry in back and to the side, so the 2nd and 3rd reflections are more similar. Again I am making some assumptions about the geometry and environment. The imaging on the mids will also be driven by whether you are listneing on axis (at a 45 deg angle to each cabinet). Yes the position of the listneing chair is important also.

One partial solution is to build a false corner or a even "half" a false corner. Others (including me) have posted & commented on various designs. Some can be fairly simple and acceptible (although surprising my girlfriend with flowers also helped). You might even want to approximate the corner prior to actual construction. I did this with a spare bookcase and a sheet of plywood. This will approximate the result and give you a better idea if you want to pursue the construction.

I guess my point is that it is just not the punch at the lowest frequencies that will be improved.

Good luck and if you pursue the "experiments" let us know your observations.

-Tom

[Daddy Dee]

Triode,

sweet stuff, eh?!

[Soundthought]

Congrats Triode,

A small note concerning stereo and mono Khorns.

They are different.

The mono designed Khorn has been engineered to augment the bass sufficiently enought to fill a room by itself, whereas the stereo design cuts the slot width in half to accomodate having 2 bass bins in the same room.

Enjoy.

Regards,

John

[colterphoto1]

Thanks BS, I decline to comment.

[BS Button]

Sort of "speaks for itself", eh?

[sfogg]

There is more to the perception of bass then just gross localization ability. Our perception of bass is also influenced by differences in timing between each ear which is why bass in a concert hall tends to sound very different then in a typical home. In a home listening room it is very hard to get an signifigant timing differences between the ears with just a single source of bass because the listeners side walls are so close by.

To help get more ITDs stereo bass response down to around 40hz is needed. And of course the msuic has to be recorded with stereo bass (much isn't) or processing needs to be applied to increase ITDs on playback.

Shawn