Deang Posted July 24, 2005 Share Posted July 24, 2005 New thread -- with a searchable topic title. Al says his Trachorn 400 is drop-in replacement for the K-400/401 horn (or K-500 in the case of the Belle), and so it is. I don't think he could have made the replacement process any easier or straight-forward. Also, there are no indications that any network modifications are required to accommodate the new horn. Since Friday night, I've run the Trachorn pair with both the AK-3 (modified and stock), as well a 1st order constant impedance network with the normal 6db of attenuation. I think it sounds incredibly good, and I finally feel like I'm getting a sound out of my Klipschorns that's commensurate with the price I paid. Now, this isn't to say that they didn't sound great to me before I dropped these horns in, but they sure didn't sound like a $6000 a pair speakers -- now they do. Needless to say, I'm surprised at the amount of improvement, which is much more than I expected. When Al first announced he was doing this project, I actually thought it might just sound mostly "different", but not necessarily better -- a feeling derived from the fact that I actually like the sound of the K-401. However, I now like K-401 quite a bit less, and I will tuck my pair safely away for a future project. What I like about the Klipsch Heritage sound is the sense of realness it brings to the music. What I haven't liked is its propensity for sounding a bit incoherent and constricted with complex music, especially at live levels. Utilizing a network that provides a cut-off for the squawker goes a long way to easing the choke hold on the sound, but it apparently takes something more to break out of it completely. I think the Trachorn gets it done in a major way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted July 24, 2005 Author Share Posted July 24, 2005 The box shows up with a decent packing job. The horns aren't all the heavy, and they're built extremely good -- so you don't need all that much protection to survive a five foot drop. In the picture below, I have already removed the piece of cardboard covering the styrofoam slats. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted July 24, 2005 Author Share Posted July 24, 2005 Sorry about the room, it's a bit embarassing to show it like this -- but it's almost become as much a workshop as a place to listen. At any rate, in this picture one horn has already been installed, and the other is on the floor getting ready to have the K-77 mounted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted July 24, 2005 Author Share Posted July 24, 2005 Al does it all, including predrilling spot-on pilot holes for the tweeter. I used #8 -1/2" screws. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted July 24, 2005 Author Share Posted July 24, 2005 There's nothing to the installation, and you don't need anything more than common sense. In the picture, I've marked the four screws one must deal with. The two on the vertical plane are removed, and the two at the top only need to be loosened so the top can be raised a little to slide the new motorboard with attached horn inside the top-hat. I would slide some newspaper underneath, or get a second set of hands to help -- doing so will prevent any inadvertant scratching to the finish. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted July 24, 2005 Author Share Posted July 24, 2005 I mirror imaged my tweeters, and they are towards the inside. Al includes new brackets to attach to horn, which I elected not to use. Instead, I went with my hi-tec foam solution. Actually, the horn is very secure even without the addtional bracing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted July 24, 2005 Author Share Posted July 24, 2005 Oops, forgot to mention that one of the support braces do have to be temporarily removed so you can screw your K-55 back on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted July 24, 2005 Author Share Posted July 24, 2005 The adapter: very nicely done. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikebse2a3 Posted July 24, 2005 Share Posted July 24, 2005 Hey Dean I really appreciate all your post on the things you try with crossovers and your Khorns. Are you still using the K77-M tweeters with this setup? And are the tweeters mounted to the side of the Trachorn? Looks like the Trachorn is shorter than the K400. If that is the situation I wonder how much the sound has changed due to changes in dispersion and interaction changes between woofer/squawker/tweeter in the crossover frequency ranges due to path length differances and the tweeter being placed horizontally of the Trachorn. It really isn't just a comparison between the K401 and Trachorn but also a change in the way all drivers/crossovers are blending and any dispersion changes created by these changes. Now I'm not taking anything away from the Trachorn I'm just pointing out there are alot of things at play here and I will be real interested in hearing more about this Modification as you get more time with it. Wouldn't it be real interesting to try ALK's Extreme Slope Crossovers with both Horns in this setup? And I wonder which one might offer the most bang for the buck. mike Edit: I see you are using the K77-M. Man sometimes it sure takes awhile for me to compose a post,I started after your first post!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fini Posted July 25, 2005 Share Posted July 25, 2005 Nice thread, Dean! What's the monetary investment, considering 1977 vintage Khorns? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daddy Dee Posted July 25, 2005 Share Posted July 25, 2005 Dean, Thanks for the pics and your take on the mods. I'd be interested to hear more about what you are hearing. That much difference from the horn change? All your drivers and crossovers remained the same? Al, Super job on the drop in conversion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lwhaples Posted July 25, 2005 Share Posted July 25, 2005 Dean, Nice pics and a good read. Thanks for taking the time to post your findings here.Still waiting to hear from the guy making my cabinets,with the Trachorns in mind and the rest of the parts waiting. Larry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Klappenberger Posted July 25, 2005 Share Posted July 25, 2005 Dean, I was surprised that you were able to put that rear vertical support back after installing the horns. I thought it would have to be removed permanently. How much clearance do you have between the K55 and that support board? Al K. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frzninvt Posted July 25, 2005 Share Posted July 25, 2005 Wow! I did not realize that Al assembled them in a manner that you just had to mount them right in. I thought alot of customization had to take place. They look very nice and like the fact that the tweeter is mounted vertically. Looking forward to your thoughts once you have spent some time with them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fini Posted July 25, 2005 Share Posted July 25, 2005 ---------------- On 7/25/2005 12:20:31 AM fini wrote: Nice thread, Dean! What's the monetary investment, considering 1977 vintage Khorns? ---------------- Nevermind...I got the info from Al's site. Any chance you'll be schlepping them down to Hope?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sunnysal Posted July 25, 2005 Share Posted July 25, 2005 dean, so the tweeter is mounted inside the front panel? any worry about diffraction problems? I though it was best to flush mount the tweeter? thanks, tony Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted July 25, 2005 Author Share Posted July 25, 2005 How much clearance do you have between the K55 and that support board? Al -- about an 1/8 of an inch, maybe a little more. I'll take a picture when I get home tonight. All your drivers and crossovers remained the same? I have pairs of both the K-55-V with the dual phasing plug and the K-55-M -- and going back and forth between them with the K-401's didn't reveal any earth-shattering differences. I used the K-55-V's with the Trachorns only because they were the drivers sitting closest to the K-horns after I switched horns! As far as the networks go -- well, they never stay the same. Right now, I'm using the constant impedence 1st order network. Al says I must enjoy the sound of a lot of driver interaction! That much difference from the horn change? They still sound like Klipschorns, but the clarity and openess is on another level. There is an obvious reduction in distortion. Looks like the Trachorn is shorter than the K400. Yes. If that is the situation I wonder how much the sound has changed due to changes in dispersion... Obviously some. However, if I turn my head or swivel my chair -- I don't lose the sweet spot. My opinion therefore is that the imaging characteristics have improved. ...and interaction changes between woofer/squawker/tweeter in the crossover frequency ranges due to path length differances and the tweeter being placed horizontally of the Trachorn. I don't think Klipsch ever addressed the path length differences (time) with any of their networks. Personally, I don't think the ears care all that much about it. We did plently of experimenting with this kind of thing using the DQ-10, and we all decided that in theory it's pretty cool stuff, but in the listening room it means next to nothing. Now, Dennis says it IS audible, and if one is serious about this kind of thing -- it wouldn't be all that difficult to remove the tweeter and align it with the voice coil of the K-55 (by mounting it outside, and over the top of the squawker). As far as the horizontal placement of the tweeter goes (and its vertical orientation) -- I simply don't know. I think the primary goal here is lower distortion and a smoother launching point for the sound. If you haven't already, you might want to read the Edgar interview. http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue4/edgarinterview.htm ...any worry about diffraction problems? I'm not wringing my hands over it. Even when flush mounted, the K-horn motorboard is not anywhere near the ideal for accomplishing this sort of thing. Still, it wouldn't be all that difficult to do it if one wanted. There is always room for improvement and/or optimization. We all know the Klipschorn (like most speakers) is a compromised design, but now less so with the Trachorn. The biggest improvements in sound will always be found by lowering distortion -- anything else is secondary. One should start by cleaning up the sound of the K400/401, and then moving to this mod. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Klappenberger Posted July 25, 2005 Share Posted July 25, 2005 Tony, I doubt there is any serious defraction trouble with the way the K77 is mounted. It is mounted to the front through a hole is that is a snitch wider than the K77 is. This means it's virtually sitting alone with no baffle at all and about 5/8 inch behind the grill cloth. If you are worried about it, you could always surround it with a thin layer of scoustic damping material to absorb anyhting that gets around the edge. Al k. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D-MAN Posted July 25, 2005 Share Posted July 25, 2005 Dean, nice thread and good pics! I thought those were 2004 Khorns? DM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted July 25, 2005 Author Share Posted July 25, 2005 2003's actually. Incidently, what started all of this was the fact that my modified Heresy's sounded better than my AK-4 Klipschorns. I don't think the AK-4 network works well with tube amps in small rooms. "It is mounted to the front through a hole that is a snitch wider than the K77 is. Well, it's actually physically attached to the back. I tried to do it the other way, but I couldn't get the darned magnet through the hole. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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