t-man Posted September 23, 2001 Author Share Posted September 23, 2001 Boa, That's interesting about the adj crossover thing. I just assumed you could isolate it for each speaker. That sucks considering most center and rears can't go as low as the mains. Kind of forces most to stick with that 80 hz setting. Would be really valuable if you could set the x-over for each speaker, like volume. Shape, Why do you have your levels so high? Seems you could set your highest efficiency speakers at around 0, and then calibrate from there. My front array is 0, -1, -1, and the rears are +3, +3. Same for HT or Music. That gives me about 75 db with the test tones on my Denon. I listen to most moves at -20 or so on the volume. Like your outlaw, my Denon has 60 watts/channel. T-man ------------------ KG 5.5 (mains) KG 2.2v (center) KLF-C7 (center in storage) KG 1 (rears) KSW-12 (sub) Denon AVR 681/1601 Toshiba SD-3109 DVD Kenwood LVD700 LD Sony CD changer Sony 27" Trinitron Sony PLX I Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boa12 Posted September 23, 2001 Share Posted September 23, 2001 t, yea most so capable preamps & receivers have it more flexible like that. at least the 4802 goes below 80hz unlike the 3802 & 2802. denon will probably continue to catch on unlike marantz. i'd really have no problem at all cutting a c7 at 60hz or maybe even 40hz. i just did another frequency sweep on it (alone, no sub) & i got pretty solid output all the way to 40hz. & still some to 30hz. didn't drop off completely til in the 20s. i mean measurement specs are one thing but this thing has dual 8 inchers in a pretty big cabinet. many run it as large w/ no problem. i did until i got my vel sub. This message has been edited by boa12 on 09-24-2001 at 12:01 AM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShapeShifter Posted September 24, 2001 Share Posted September 24, 2001 Earlier this year I queried NAD Tech Spt as to my receivers sub crossover points. Well here's the response I received via email: "The T761 subwoofer output is filtered out above 100 Hz. This is pretty much standard on surround equipment. If you have adjustable sub, just set above that level. " Must remind myself, that I chose this receiver because of its "Music First" abilities and NAD's KISS approach to HT setup & modes. It does an excellent job in 2 or 5 Channel music modes, that's why I chose it. Carrots, broccoli, or prunes? Can't remember either! T-man, After seeing the levels you guys are at, I'm now wondering myself. I used the Video Essentials CD to calibrate and those settings were the results. Not sure if running duel fronts & rears has some effect on settings? My room is sort of L shaped, 13' 4" wide narrow width, front end, and approx. 22 wide at the "L" which is the rear seating area. Total length of the room is approx. 30'. Both fronts are a little less that 2 feet away from front wall near the corners & toed in slightly. Rear Cornwalls are pretty much on the wall, toed in a bit and RS-3's are mounted 5'7' above, on rear wall. I think I'll recalibrate everything again this weekend to see if I get any different results. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated. Thanks for the observations and comments. Wes This message has been edited by ShapeShifter on 09-24-2001 at 10:36 AM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
t-man Posted September 24, 2001 Author Share Posted September 24, 2001 Shape, I guess I meant to direct the sound levels question to Mike. It seems his levels are all very high, and was curious about it. Boa, interesting observations on that C7. I can see why companies would frequently overstate their specs, but in this case it appears that the specs are understaded. I wonder why this is so? Things that make you go hmm... In any event, good luck, and let us know how you like that Denon. Whatcha gonna do with that new Marantz? T-man ------------------ KG 5.5 (mains) KG 2.2v (center) KLF-C7 (center in storage) KG 1 (rears) KSW-12 (sub) Denon AVR 681/1601 Toshiba SD-3109 DVD Kenwood LVD700 LD Sony CD changer Sony 27" Trinitron Sony PLX I Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boa12 Posted September 24, 2001 Share Posted September 24, 2001 t, my tests were by ear & not real scientific. didn't even use a meter. klipsch probably measured by flat response & got some drop off below 75hz. by ear mine dropped off some around 70 but then came back strong down lower. just the ears & room here i plan to move the marantz to the lounge w/ the current rf-3 & move the sony from the lounge to the bedroom for a 3rd sys. or give the sony to my brother to make up for that pioneer quadraphonic receiver i sold him in the early 70s Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Lindsey Posted September 24, 2001 Share Posted September 24, 2001 t-man, I was told how to calibrate by a gentleman named Vince Maskeeper out on www.hometheaterforum.com . The thread in question is no longer but here is what he had to say: He explained that reference level is considered to be setting your speakers so that the LOUDEST possible sound coming out of any one measures 105db in Sound Pressure at the listening position in your room. Now, how do you do that? Well, someone could record a disc with a tone on it for you that is encoded as loud as possible -- you could play that tone in your room and measure it with a meter and set your receiver so that your speaker plays at 105db. You COULD do that, but it would probably be a very, very unpleasant experience. No one wants to be blasted with full volume just to set their speakers. So, the guys making the test tone discs said "Hey, why don't we just make the tone so it is a specific amount lower than maximum, and the guy using it at his house can just calibrate to the lower level!" And thus they did. Video Essentials (VE) created a tone that is exactly 30 steps below maximum. Since we said maximum was supposed to be heard as 105db in your room, 30 steps below 105 is 75. So since you know the tone on VE is 30 steps below full level, you can measure that to be 75db in your room and achieve the same result! Now you would have it set so that the loudest sound would be 105db. quote: Forom what I understand, Ref level is 00db on the receiver volume??? 00db is loud in my small apt (normally listen to -20 to -30 with each channel level set to 0db and mains and center set to small). Okay, here is where it gets a little tricky. Two points to remember: 1) Ref level just means calibrated so that the maximum level is 105db peak in volume in the room at the listening position. The position of the volume knob, really means nothing. Think about it this way - if you moved your current receiver and speakers into your favorite concert hall, and set it up on the stage and sat in the back row, the volume knob would have to be much HIGHER to get the same sound level to you WAAAAY back in the back row. Moreso, imagine taking the speaker system you see traveling with an arena rock band like Aerosmith. if you set that up in your living room - it would probably not take much to get your room really loud! The point is - the key to ref level is OUTPUT. It is a measured output. If your volume knob ends up at 00 for ref level - great. If not, it could be at -04 or +03, or whatever. My Denon allows me to adjust every channel, including the front l/r speakers, in the speaker setup menu. So I have set my volume knob to 00 and then adjusted all the speakers so that they measure correctly. I did this just for ease of use on my part (00 is easy to remember) -- I could have easily set the knob to -05 and adjusted the speakers to that point. Some receivers don't let you adjust the R/L speaker - just center and surrounds. In that case, you simply adjust the volume knob so the l/r speakers measure correct and adjust center and surrounds around that. Again, in either case - where the volume knob ends up is correct - no matter what it reads. Just take a note of it. 2) The second point you need to keep in mind is this: Ref level is not necessary. Most, if not all, HTF members listen most of the time below ref level...Ref level is pretty loud. Note by me: That's because they're not using Klipsch speakers. The real key to calibration is to match all the speaker levels in SPL - making them even. It's good to also know where the REF LEVEL position on the volume knob is - but I usually find myself hovering somewhere between -05 and -10 of ref. Again, the big key is to calibrate to match speaker output levels -- beyond that is YOUR HOME THEATER, adjust the volume knob to where you are comfortable listening. That's why the volume knob is there! quote: From what I have read on this site, you are supposed to set receiver master volume to 00db and then calibrate speaker and sub levels to 75db on the SPL. Let's say the level I listen to is more like -20 to -30db, is this considered "my reference" master volume, and so I would set master volume to this point, then calibrate and adjust speaker and sub levels to reach 75db on the SPL meter? Or, if I listen lower than reference level...do I calibrate to a point different than 75db? What I would do is this: 1) Set the volume knob to 00 2) Adjust the levels using test tones and the SPL meter. If using VE, all tones should measure 75db. If using Avia, they will measure 85db. 3) You now have a system calibrated so that 00 is dolby ref level. Adjusting the volume knob will adjust all the speakers evenly - so you can now adjust the volume to the -10 or -20 position you normally listen at. You don't need to specifically calibrate for where you plan to listen. In fact, if you tried to set the volume to -20 and adjust the channels to 75db, you probably couldn't get them to go high enough (again, he wasn't thinking of Klipsch when he said this). And even if you could, your -20 position would now be set so that it was ref and you'd probably want to turn down to -40 when you want to listen to it. Keep in mind REF LEVEL will measure output. Just set it up so that 00 is correct and then adjust the volume to where you are comfortable listening... Based on Vince's logic, that is how I decided to set my levels, and with the efficiency of these speakers (especially the Chorus') that is why my levels are what they are. If you all feel I still have them set wrong, please let me know how I should be calibrating and I will do it over again. Thanks again, Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
t-man Posted September 24, 2001 Author Share Posted September 24, 2001 Mike, Thanks for the detailed explanation! I actually re-read your post again, and I must have been confused the first time I read it. I was seeing -11, and thinking I was seeing +11. Of course it makes sense that the numbers should be backed off due to the Klipsch efficiency. I'm sure you have things just right. When I see highly efficent Klipsch mains calibrated at + levels, that's when I become concerned. Sorry for the misunderstanding. In any event, we all got a nice review of speaker level setting from you. Thanks! One thing I've noticed, is that in my close listening position, placement of the SPL meter is critical. A bit off to one side throws everything off. I put a tripod in place of where my body usually sits, with the meter ultimately at my head level and tilted slightly toward the front. I stood off to the side, making sure my body would not be in the way of speakers during level readings. This method yielded very different results than those when I was sitting down holding the meter at a place where I could see it. As for subwoofer calibrating, I've given up on the SPL meter, I set it to taste - typically much louder than I should according to the calibration settings. I like it like that!!! T-man ------------------ KG 5.5 (mains) KG 2.2v (center) KLF-C7 (center in storage) KG 1 (rears) KSW-12 (sub) Denon AVR 681/1601 Toshiba SD-3109 DVD Kenwood LVD700 LD Sony CD changer Sony 27" Trinitron Sony PLX I Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Lindsey Posted September 25, 2001 Share Posted September 25, 2001 t-man, Thanks...I wish I wrote it but all the kudos go to Vince. Like you, I noticed large differences depending on where I put the SPL meter. My listening position is 10' in front of the center and 11' from the mains. My sub is 9' away. Since I didn't have a tripod, I placed a chair on my couch and then put the SPL meter on top of the chair. Like you, I tried to stay out of the way of the sound as I was calibrating. As for the sub, I tried calibrating a couple of different ways. Tom Vodhanel (TV) told me to turn the gain (volume) all the way up (00) on my Samson amp and calibrate from there. Well, when I did that, I had to set the sub channel to -12 (the lowest setting) on the receiver and it was still above 75 db. I chose to set the gain on the Samson to -04 db (4 clicks from 00) and dialed it in to -09 on the Denon. I'm sure there are a few ways to do this but this is how I chose to do mine. However, I'm always interested in how others calibrate their systems. Besides, I like tinkering anyway. Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
t-man Posted September 25, 2001 Author Share Posted September 25, 2001 Mike, Many of the "pros" are advocating that you should set your sub 10 db higher than the rest (depending on test tone source). VE may already compensate for this, as I don't recall right off the top of my head. T-man ------------------ KG 5.5 (mains) KG 2.2v (center) KLF-C7 (center in storage) KG 1 (rears) KSW-12 (sub) Denon AVR 681/1601 Toshiba SD-3109 DVD Kenwood LVD700 LD Sony CD changer Sony 27" Trinitron Sony PLX I Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avman Posted September 25, 2001 Share Posted September 25, 2001 i haven't used a spl meter yet, but i will. so far i 'set' the levels on my receiver to +1.5 db for the c-7, +6/7db for the s-6's (i go to +10 for the RARE music surround mode listening). used godzilla 1st 'fire at will' scene (dd) and eagles-hell freezes over seven bridges road track (dts). sounds GREAT! a note on the sub later-gotta go! avman. ------------------ 1-pair klf 30's c-7 center ksps-6 surrounds sony strda-777ES receiver sony playstation 2 dishnetwork model 7200 dishplayer satellite receiver/digital bitstream recorder pioneer dvd player sharp 35"tv panamax max dbs+5 surge protector/power conditioner monster cable interconnects/12 gua.speaker wire a 'teens' sub coming!(RSW-15 LOOKIN'GOOD!) KLIPSCH-So Good It Hz! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Lindsey Posted September 25, 2001 Share Posted September 25, 2001 avman, Without the SPL meter, it's hard to say whether your dialid-in. If your ears think they are, I guess that's all that matters. As a guess, I'd say those settings are way too high for your speakers. I've never seen Klipsch's with plus db's on the channel settings. Just my opinion... Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShapeShifter Posted September 25, 2001 Share Posted September 25, 2001 Mike, Thanks for posting the informative article and link. I have copied and pasted the article into MS Word for future reference. Bookmarked the link too. I used those same procedures w/SPL meter & VE disc when I initially made my adjustments. I think my room size, furniture placement (PC work station near left fronts & entertainment center near right fronts) has a significant affect as well. I'm also seated 26' from my fronts, that's where SPL measurements were taken mounted to a tripod raised to ear level, tilted upward. I will reclibrate this weekend to see if anything changes. Good find...Wes Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Lindsey Posted September 25, 2001 Share Posted September 25, 2001 Wes, Twenty-six feet?! Holy moly! I'm surprised you can hear them at all from that distance... Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShapeShifter Posted September 25, 2001 Share Posted September 25, 2001 Yea Mike, I was pretty much sold on the house when I first visited. It's a quad and the family room is the third level below grade. It runs from front to back. Plenty of entertainment space for a single guy! Now where are those Klipsch loving females Later, Wes Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
t-man Posted September 25, 2001 Author Share Posted September 25, 2001 Shape, Can you say BIG SCREEN TV? Better yet, 72" screen with overhead projector? Cool. Troy ------------------ KG 5.5 (mains) KG 2.2v (center) KLF-C7 (center in storage) KG 1 (rears) KSW-12 (sub) Denon AVR 681/1601 Toshiba SD-3109 DVD Kenwood LVD700 LD Sony CD changer Sony 27" Trinitron Sony PLX I Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShapeShifter Posted September 26, 2001 Share Posted September 26, 2001 Oh, but for me to dream the impossible dream! Kitchen & Bath remodeling projects are near term priorities. My 52" Mitsu proj screen begins to look a lot better. Now where did I put those opera glasses? This message has been edited by ShapeShifter on 09-26-2001 at 07:52 PM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dbngaa Posted September 28, 2001 Share Posted September 28, 2001 well, this post is now a bit old, but as it initially began as a thread about center speaker matching to kg5.5's i still want to chime in. i have kg5.5's for front and surrounds with a kt-lcr as my center. i have been overall very pleased with its performance in this capacity. the manual states that it is designed to be a vertical speaker, however i am forced to place it horizontally on top of my entetainment center. there have been a few times i thought the sound was slightly constrained, but that could be the material as well. i have tried placing it vertically, but it is then much too high and no conclusive result could be determined. i will soon be (hopefully) upgrading to a big ol' widescreen tv. i want to try placing the speaker vertically below the screen angled up and see if there's a difference. if not, atop the tv the speaker will be a foot lower and more aligned with the kg5.5's horns. speaking of which, and aasking before i do a search on the subject, what's a good material for raising these speakers off the floor a bit? i've heard concrete blocks, but that won't fly with my wife. and considering the things she DOES let fly, i won't push her on it. or maybe i'll just get another set of the 5.5's for front and rear center! This message has been edited by dbngaa on 09-28-2001 at 09:55 AM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T2K Posted September 29, 2001 Share Posted September 29, 2001 dbngaa,you want to raise your KG5.5's? I so,how much? Keith Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dbngaa Posted September 29, 2001 Share Posted September 29, 2001 well, i was really thinking of the kt-lcr, but re-reading the sentence i see that i implied the kg5.5's. i guess the same might go for either though. when i get to try out the lcr vertically below the tv screen, i'll need to angle it up a bit. i don't want to use a phone book. nor do i want to scratch the finish on the speaker. and it may not make a real difference in sound anyway. so maybe i'll start with the phone book and see before looking towards anything more permanent. but since we're on the subject, how would you suggest kicking the kg5.5's up off the floor, keith? thanks in advance for any info. david Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T2K Posted September 29, 2001 Share Posted September 29, 2001 I would go to HD and buy 3/4'MDF.I would cut it(better yet let them cut it)the same size as the 5.5's and glue/screw it together.Basically,build an extension of the 5.5 cabinet.I would drill small holes in the top of the new box in which the 5.5 spikes could rest.Then I would buy spikes from www.partsexpress.com for the box/stand.I would finish with paint or veneer and enjoy every minute of it. I would do much the same for the KT-LCR.Something like a slant riser base on a Heresy except with a short rear vertical brace to cradle the speaker. Should be simple.Phone book would be easier.Good luck. Keith Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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