TheEvan Posted August 2, 2005 Share Posted August 2, 2005 My wife has fairly strong tinnitus (ringing of the ears), a condition which can literally drive you nuts. The only treatment is counseling & therapies to train your mind to live with it without jumping off a bridge somewhere. Anyway, it makes her a bit deaf in some frequencies and completely intolerant in others. Which brings me to me dilemma. My recent return to tubes has introduced thermionic noise into my system that is driving her looney. I know, when the music is playing, no problem. But the idle times, between tunes, etc. drives her immediately & violently out of the room. Sigh. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LarryC Posted August 2, 2005 Share Posted August 2, 2005 I also have that in one ear, along with "hyperacusis" or over-sensitivity to sound that causes the hissing/rushing sound to get worse if things are too loud and/or, like your wife, the wrong frequency range. To me, the hiss sounds like a gain mismatch between your preamp, amplifier, and maybe the sound source. K-horns have always made me choose those things carefully. The Blueberry is a very quiet preamp, and should NOT be the problem. A few questions if you think they'll help: do you get the hiss when you turn your volume control all the way down? If (edit:) not, I'd wonder if it's your sound source. If (edit:) it's still there, the prime candidate IME is an amplifier with too much gain. Amps themselves are invariably very quiet, but high gain will magnify noise from the preamp circuitry that follows the volume control (one symptom is if your VC rides the bottom of its range). I go by sensitivity -- what voltage in for how many watts out? For example, needing only 0.5 v. in for 100 watts out could be a problem (I have a much better 2.5 v. or so in for 100 watts out). What happens when you disconnect or mute your preamp? Also, the BB has both a volume and "sensitivity" controls, and maybe you can play with those to present a lower hiss level to your amp. I don't know how they work, however. Maybe MarkD can help. "Sigh" is right, unfortunately! Best wishes, Larry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LarryC Posted August 2, 2005 Share Posted August 2, 2005 Good question, but let me say that pathological tinnitus and hyperacusis are pathological conditions that cannot be judged by people with normal hearing. What sounds benign to others doesn't to me. People are astonished at what I can't stand to hear for very long. Part of the puzzle is that some frequencies and types of sounds are a problem where others are not. Road noise in one car is intolerable for me while that in another is not -- and yet no one with normal hearing can tell why even one of them would be bothersome to me. Mark, what is the interaction of the volume and sensitivity controls, and will one of them lower the later circuitry in the BB? Larry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LarryC Posted August 2, 2005 Share Posted August 2, 2005 Very interesting, great idea especially for K-horns. As I said above, I agree completely that the BB is "xtremely" quiet. I wonder if the sound source gain is too low and buries the signal in noise, or the amplifier gain is very high. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheEvan Posted August 2, 2005 Author Share Posted August 2, 2005 The item is "items". Just the amp idling without a preamp is enough to set her off. The tube amp is marginally noisier than the Teac, but only marginally. Same with the BB. It adds only the finest layer of hiss, independent of the volume control. The only place there's any extra noise is in the phono circuit. Again, it's very quiet and its additions are small. I dunno. I may have to go back to Lux integrated until I decide what to do. I'm wonering if there's some elaborate switching system that accomodate both. But the more I think about it, the more I know I can't. In the end I'll accomodate my wife. She makes sweet music, very natural, with great imaging and realism. In my household, I'm the one who can hear the 19k carrier. Even when walking by a house with a TV on inside. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dragonfyr Posted August 2, 2005 Share Posted August 2, 2005 Contact the House Ear Institute, and perhaps they can provide additional insight, as they are at the forefront of the research... http://www.hei.org/welcome.htm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Klipschguy Posted August 2, 2005 Share Posted August 2, 2005 Isn't that high pitch noise coming out of a CRT type TV 15.625Khz. My wife can hear it well, I only can if I put my head close to the set. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike stehr Posted August 2, 2005 Share Posted August 2, 2005 Interesting thread. I used to remember when I was a kid I could hear all kinds of HF noise when firing up the ol' ancient black and white television to watch saturday cartoons. I just cobbled together a simple tube linestage using a Tung-Sol 5687WA tube. The Tung-Sol has a mu of around 20. It's more or less the Audio Note M7 clone circuit, with a different configuration power supply. A simple CLC. A 5V4 rectifier, 40 mic, around a 3 henrie choke, and 80 mic on the last cap. It works, but I have tube rush noise(shot noise?). A combination of a rushing/hiss hash noise. I've got the PS down to minimal hum, tolerable enough for a twit like me anyway. There is no grid or suppresion resistors at the input of the grids of the 5687. Just straight through a pair of 100K Allen-Bradley pots to each grid. I mentioned the rushing noise to the retired EE audio friend. He mentioned that the noise may be either just a noisy tube, or a noisy plate resistor. And if it is a noisy plate resistor, that the noise would be different on both channels. The rushing noise is equal on both sides however. He also suggested to try a small cap between the grid and cathode, no value was mentioned however. Gotta think like a EE I suppose..... Last night I replaced the 10K plate load resitors, changed from a 5Y3 to a 5V4, and ran a couple of resistors from each leg of the 6.3 volt heater winding to ground for the 5687 to quiet the hum down more. I also tried a little 250 volt ASC brand polypropelene .1 uF cap from each grid to cathode. It's obvious that this isn't the correct value. Too low or high a value I guess. It was like a low-pass filter, and killed off some of the upper octaves. The bass was real thick, and got thicker as the volume was turned up, like a bass boost at the expense of high frequencies. And the cap from grid to cathode didn't effect the rushing noise. When you first turn the linestage on,(I was using a variac for both the linestage and the amp) it's quiet for about 15, to 20 seconds, and then the rushing noise shows up. So I'm assuming once the cathodes of the 5687 come up, it starts making noise. I'm taking a stab that the 5687, or this particular sample is just a noisy tube. The noise is even on both left and right side. I could have too much gain as well, making the rushing noise even worse. The rushing noise does not change when adjusting the volume controls, it stays the same at all times. It's a bummer, because I like the sound and what it does. The little SE 6BQ5 Magnavox boogies really well with it. I suppose I should try another type of tube...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Robinson Posted August 2, 2005 Share Posted August 2, 2005 ---------------- On 8/2/2005 3:30:01 PM mike stehr wrote: I'm taking a stab that the 5687, or this particular sample is just a noisy tube. The noise is even on both left and right side. ---------------- Hey Mike, My Horuses (Hori?) are based on the 5687 and I find them to be extremely quiet. I'm using Tung Sols presently and think they're the cat's meow. IMHO, I'd look elsewhere for the culprit, but, as always, YRMV. Good luck PS: I just updated my profile. We've got the first step of our move to Hilton Head complete, however the moving company still has half of our stuff held hostage because they greatly underestimated the size of the move. My new email address is chris.robinson3@adelphia.net. Best wishes to all, and to all, a good night. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike stehr Posted August 2, 2005 Share Posted August 2, 2005 ---------------- On 8/2/2005 3:42:38 PM Chris Robinson wrote: ---------------- On 8/2/2005 3:30:01 PM mike stehr wrote: I'm taking a stab that the 5687, or this particular sample is just a noisy tube. The noise is even on both left and right side. ---------------- Hey Mike, My Horuses (Hori?) are based on the 5687 and I find them to be extremely quiet. I'm using Tung Sols presently and think they're the cat's meow. IMHO, I'd look elsewhere for the culprit, but, as always, YRMV. Good luck! ---------------- I don't get it. The Tung-Sol 5687WA is supposed to be the mac daddy of the 5687. It's a NOS tube, scounged up from a estate sale from a retired air force chap. I had Jeff's schematic of a 5687 linestage floating around here somewhere, at least I think I did. It may help.... I kill the rushing noise, and I would be fine. Good luck on the job.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheEvan Posted August 2, 2005 Author Share Posted August 2, 2005 ---------------- On 8/2/2005 11:52:37 AM mdeneen wrote: "The item is "items". Just the amp idling without a preamp is enough to set her off." ============ Are you hearing what she is hearing? i.e. do you hear anything when she is at the threshold of this? Just curious. Sounds very severe. mdeneen ---------------- I hear what she's hearing, though to me it is very quiet & unobtrusive. she does have a severe problem. She's coping remarkably well, considering this strong ringing is going on in her head around the clock. If she ever comes at me with a kitchen knife, I'll know she's having a bit of difficulty coping... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
r.cherry Posted August 2, 2005 Share Posted August 2, 2005 move the system to the garage or better yet an out building. it sounds (no pun intended) awfull, espically to place her in a position where she has to endure pain or suffering or deny you of something you enjoy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D-MAN Posted August 2, 2005 Share Posted August 2, 2005 I'm not sure that it's a pathological condition, although certainly chronic (pathological implies a causal disease) ; but it could be a genetic precondition, too... but what do I know. However, I was thinking could also be lower frequencies, i.e., changes in ambient air pressure that cause discomfort; not heard as much as felt, and that in the ear, not the body. I find that watching tv, etc. can have low-frequency noise on it that the tv by itself cannot reproduce, but when its on HT, it becomes very apparent. Some of that bothers my ears. On sort of the same note (no pun intended), have you guys ever heard of the "Taos Hum"? That's where people in certain locations "hear" a constant low frequency "hum" that drives them crazy (the most famous location is Taos, NM). Science has failed to discover the cause so far, after much testing. DM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LarryC Posted August 2, 2005 Share Posted August 2, 2005 ---------------- I'm not sure that it's a pathological condition, although certainly chronic (pathological implies a causal disease) ; but it could be a genetic precondition, too... However, I was thinking could also be lower frequencies, i.e., changes in ambient air pressure that cause discomfort; not heard as much as felt, and that in the ear, not the body. I find that watching tv, etc. can have low-frequency noise on it that the tv by itself cannot reproduce, but when its on HT, it becomes very apparent. Some of that bothers my ears. ---------------- It certainly sounds pathological to me, a variant of the very kaleidoscopic Ménière's disease. This condition is described as "A pathological condition of the inner ear characterized by dizziness, ringing in the ears, and progressive loss of hearing." Not everyone has every symptom, such as dizziness, but it's all a condition of the inner ear which falls under that name. Changes in ambient air pressure affect the middle ear much more than the inner ear. However, intense low-frequency sounds are riskier for the inner ear IMO, and I wouldn't overdo that sort of thing. As part of her condition, she appears to have "hyperacusis," a pathological hypersensitivity to sound -- pathological because it's so severe and causes intense symptoms. Part of the syndrome is her tinnitus, a ringing, rushing, or roaring noise in one or both ears. Mine is not as severe now as it once was (partly because I've lost nearly all hearing in my left ear). When I first came down with my hypercusis component, almost any sound, no matter how faint, felt like a nail being driven through my skull. It's pathological. It's not just "sensitive" hearing that's normal. Larry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheEvan Posted August 2, 2005 Author Share Posted August 2, 2005 You are so right, Larry. Thanks for the link you gave above. This deserves more study. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PrestonTom Posted August 3, 2005 Share Posted August 3, 2005 This raises a couple of interesting issues. I am sorry that your wife has tinnitus, I know that this can be a very annoying affliction. For some, it can be quite intolerable. First, you might consider a second medical opinion, there are some medications (aspirin, alcohol etc) that can, make the condition worse. There are other treatments available, although tinnitus is difficult to treat. Second, the thing that has always amazed me about K-Horns is their sensitivity. On the one hand it is a blessing since it produces a very clean and dynamic sound. The flip side, however, is that any imperfection in the source and electronics will also be revealed. Quite frankly, this is why I always recommend that when one gets started with these speakers they should put away all notions about using extra-powerful amps or exotic preamps etc. The system presents a very easy load to the amp so you do not need to get too fancy. But what is critical is that the electronics are quiet, dead quiet. If you insist on using elecetronics that hiss and hum (unfortunately - but they probably have other attributes that you like), you might consider putting a pad or perhaps even a transformer (the latter is tricky to implement) in between the amp and the speaker cabinet. This will of course attenuate the sound (both the music and the hiss/hum). Since the hiss and hum are constant (and not affected by the volume control - usually this is the case) then the hiss/hum will become inaudible. Of course, there are reasons not to do this also. In my case, I tried several different amps and pre-amps. Finally I settled on a smallish solid state amp and I use a straight line controller ("passive pre-amp") instead of a pre-amp (I only have line-level sources). That did the trick. Good luck with solving the electronics problem and I trust that there may be some other solutions or treatments for you wife's tinnitus. Good luck, -Tom Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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