jazman Posted August 8, 2005 Share Posted August 8, 2005 Once again Mt. Parrot has attempted to misinform and spin information in his never ending campaign to discourage interest in SET amps. I spent some time debunking this information last year, yet here we are again with him doing the same thing in another thread. The brief history of the publication of the statement he continually posts, points to a time in the history of audio where there were too many awful, low powered, SS amps frying tweeters in Klipsch speakers. The thought was to recommend a somewhat higher wattage to avoid this problem. You will not find ANY Klipsch engineers to tell you there is a 20 watt recommended minimum for Klipsch speakers. I have been over this issue with Trey, who can verify the history of how and why that information was published in that time period. Please do not believe any of the things that are spun to you by Mr. Parrot with regard to SET amps. HE believes Cool Whip is a food. Klipsch out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anarchist Posted August 8, 2005 Share Posted August 8, 2005 Would that be 1976? The items I have reference Paul recommending high-quality, 20 watt minimum amps... was surprising to me given their efficiency but thats what it said. I, personally, having listened to Khorns for quite a few hours now would suggest the Eico - at 14watts would likely be towards the minimum. It, of course, all depends on your listening habits and the volume and realism you seek from your speakers. While quite good at very low volumes, I have found the bass really starts pumping when I dial in about 1/3 of the volume level on my 50 watt tube amp. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parrot Posted August 8, 2005 Share Posted August 8, 2005 Jazman, Such hostility is very unbecoming. Sorry, I'm going to have to side with Paul W. Klipsch on this one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jazman Posted August 8, 2005 Author Share Posted August 8, 2005 ---------------- On 8/8/2005 2:07:02 PM Anarchist wrote: Would that be 1976? The items I have reference Paul recommending high-quality, 20 watt minimum amps... was surprising to me given their efficiency but thats what it said. I, personally, having listened to Khorns for quite a few hours now would suggest the Eico - at 14watts would likely be towards the minimum. It, of course, all depends on your listening habits and the volume and realism you seek from your speakers. While quite good at very low volumes, I have found the bass really starts pumping when I dial in about 1/3 of the volume level on my 50 watt tube amp. ---------------- I can produce chest pounding bass with my 3.5 wpc 2A3 SET monoblocks, so thats not saying to much about your 50 watt amp. Klipsch out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jazman Posted August 8, 2005 Author Share Posted August 8, 2005 ---------------- On 8/8/2005 2:07:12 PM Parrot wrote: Jazman, Such hostility is very unbecoming. Sorry, I'm going to have to side with Paul W. Klipsch on this one. ---------------- PWK did not write the marketing information. You do not wish to acknowledge the truth of how and why this appeared in the marketing information because it does not suit your purpose to continually provide incorrrect information under the guise that it is the gospel according to PWK. You really should stop the lies. Klipsch out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parrot Posted August 8, 2005 Share Posted August 8, 2005 Yes, fellow Forum members, are you going to believe Jazman or your lying eyes? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BEC Posted August 8, 2005 Share Posted August 8, 2005 We could use the "modest" amp of 50 watts described here. Bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted August 8, 2005 Share Posted August 8, 2005 I'm siding with Edmond this time. Since the curves have been doctored up, I don't think I can believe the text either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrWho Posted August 8, 2005 Share Posted August 8, 2005 You would need more than 20 watts on a speaker with a 108db sensitivity to reach 120dB! That alone is sufficient reason to claim that more than 20 watts is needed. Then take into account a 4 ohm dip in the impedance and now you've got yourself needing 40 watts of power. But since no speaker is 108dB sensitive, we get to double that number for every 3dB less the sensitivity is (so 105 requires 40 watts, 102 (khorn) requires 80, and 99 requires 160). Give yourself some headroom and we're talking a 200 watt amp for most typical, yet efficient loudspeakers...or with a low impedance dip we're looking at a good 500 watt amp! I guess that puts me in the same camp as Parrot because I've always thought cool-whip was a food too...(I really don't like the name dropping because it turns into an emotional diatribe which doesn't serve any purpose). Now I don't normally listen to music at 120dB continuous, but I do listen to music in the 90-100dB range that can have transients as much as 20-30dB louder than the RMS level. Being able to hear this makes a world of difference to the enjoyment of the music (after all, it's all about ENJOYING the hobby and I'm talking music anywhere from classical to heavy metal to classic rock) I suppose there are those who listen to simple boring music like jazz where HUGE peaks of 100dB are the norm and in which case they can go enjoy their puny 2 watt amps The amount of wattage one needs is completely dependent on the source material and how loud the listener likes to listen to music. That said, you will never find any klipsch engineers to tell you there is any minimum wattage for klipsch speakers, nor will you find them telling you there is a maximum either (provided you don't use all the watts available). Though I feel it should be mentioned that there is nothing inheritantly wrong with having too much power available...it decreases the chances of clipping the amp (the number one destroyer of speakers) and higher wattage speakers tend to have a larger area of linearity. If you feel that high power amps don't do well with the first few watts, then by all means wire swamping resistors to the output such that you bring the volume out of the "bad range" (or you could just invest in a quality high power amp...say a crown K1, which just happens to be used quite often in recording studios). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jazman Posted August 8, 2005 Author Share Posted August 8, 2005 ---------------- On 8/8/2005 2:18:54 PM Parrot wrote: Yes, fellow Forum members, are you going to believe Jazman or your lying eyes? ---------------- Once again, a marketing brochure without the reference context with which it was written. I have cited Trey as a source to verify what I have written. He certainly knows more than you about this issue, but you would rather continue to bullsh!t people. Is truly said; "When you can not dazzle with brillance, Baffle them with BULLSH!T". There appears to be no end to the extremes you will go to in order to peddle your lies. Klipsch out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrWho Posted August 8, 2005 Share Posted August 8, 2005 ---------------- On 8/8/2005 2:10:41 PM jazman wrote: I can produce chest pounding bass with my 3.5 wpc 2A3 SET monoblocks, so thats not saying to much about your 50 watt amp. ---------------- Not to be a prick, but could you measure the SPL in your room that you refer to as chest pounding? Chest pounding for me is on the order of 130dB+ (wearing ear protection of course), but I would be curious as to what others consider chest pounding. I know I could never get 130dB with but 3 watts... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allan Songer Posted August 8, 2005 Share Posted August 8, 2005 ---------------- On 8/8/2005 2:25:20 PM DrWho wrote: I suppose there are those who listen to simple boring music like jazz where HUGE peaks of 100dB are the norm and in which case they can go enjoy their puny 2 watt amps ---------------- This might well be the stupidest comment ever made on this forum! CONGRATULATIONS!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parrot Posted August 8, 2005 Share Posted August 8, 2005 Some good points, Dr. Who. Actually, though, I talked to several Klipsch engineers on my last two trips and they laughed at the idea of powering speakers with a few watt amps. And also, as you know, body to the music and control are what really separate decent amps from the toy science kits. It's not hard to reach a particular dB level, but to do so musically is the important thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parrot Posted August 8, 2005 Share Posted August 8, 2005 It's quite a common error to mistake flabby, distorted, uncontrolled upper bass as having "lots of bass." Also, if one's room has standing wave problems, that can also fool the inexperienced into thinking they have "lots of bass." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parrot Posted August 8, 2005 Share Posted August 8, 2005 Low power danger. JBLTechNoteLowPower1.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Petrol Posted August 8, 2005 Share Posted August 8, 2005 I don't have Khorns but I DO believe Cool Whip is a food!! From time to time (or whenever I find myself listening to music when the wife has left the house) I also like my music on the loud side . . . sometimes at near live concert levels . . . While I don't now, I would prefer to have at least 10 times the 20wpc mentioned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spaaaz Posted August 8, 2005 Share Posted August 8, 2005 I kinda thought that the good Dr. was going to take some heat for the jazz comment Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seti Posted August 8, 2005 Share Posted August 8, 2005 Jazzman, The truth is what we hear and convincing most members of this forum the virtues of SET is an excercise in futility. I would switch SET debates to a more SET friendly forum as even the mention of SET on this forum gets a thread shutdown between 3-10 pages. In my room with my Belles & 8wpc 300Bs I rarely turn the volume past 11 o'clock on my Wright preamp. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anarchist Posted August 8, 2005 Share Posted August 8, 2005 ---------------- On 8/8/2005 2:10:41 PM jazman wrote: I can produce chest pounding bass with my 3.5 wpc 2A3 SET monoblocks, so thats not saying to much about your 50 watt amp. Klipsch out. ---------------- Whoa, Nelly. I hadn't realized I stepped into another one of these SET $hitstorms so I didn't need to have my equipment insulted. I merely posted the information from MY documentation and MY experience. I don't give a rat's butt whether you like SET, PP, or Steady State. Go for it but there is no need to insult MY equipment, MY opinions, or MY subjective ratings. Which, speaking of subjectiveness, chest pounding to me would be the feel of a sledgehammer hitting one's sternum. Is that your same criteria of chestpounding? If not, perhaps my equipment is better than you thought. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allan Songer Posted August 8, 2005 Share Posted August 8, 2005 Edmund--you have to remember that at least three-fourths of the folks around here listen to the crappiest stuff you can imagine and think of it as music. You read the reccomendations don't you? Who CARES what most people think? Your amps with your speakers and your turntable and your EQUISITE taste mesh beautifully. If they can't bother to understand and appreciate Joe Henderson, their opinions DO NOT MATTER!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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