IB Slammin Posted August 11, 2005 Share Posted August 11, 2005 ---------------- On 8/11/2005 10:34:39 PM DeanG wrote: FMD is right. Yuck. There's some serious stuff in that 400 > 1000 range, and I sure as heck don't want it coming out of a freaking bass bin. I'll take the clean and solid whack of my Klipschorn's bass over the slam. ---------------- Why does that not surprise me? You praised the "7's" when you had them. Nice to know that you are listening to a better mid-horn. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daddy Dee Posted August 12, 2005 Share Posted August 12, 2005 DMAN Your take on the pleasing sound of the Jubilee sounds right to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WMcD Posted August 12, 2005 Share Posted August 12, 2005 I like D-Man. We've had some debates. He suggests deep questions. I suspect that what achieves "slam" depends on what "slam is". And maybe other products of the reproduction system trash it. I am more than willing to admit that some stuff has "slam". Telarc recordings on the Forte II at the office reproduce the slam of the drum well. My guess is that "slam" is the product of an optimally dampted system with a lot of power. Gil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IB Slammin Posted August 12, 2005 Share Posted August 12, 2005 ---------------- On 8/11/2005 11:00:16 PM soundog wrote: The Khorn produces bass that sounds the closest I've ever heard to a live performance. If you want artificial "slam" it is not the speaker for you. ---------------- Having attended many live concerts over the last 35 years, I have concluded that the studio recording is better than live. If I make a mistake, I will do another take. No bad rooms, no bad mic placements. You said it and I agree, the stock Khorn is not for everyone.I have owned them and they are not for me. They have an accurate "kick", but no in your face slam. And with 3.5 WPC? Please........ I have done it again I.B. Slammin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IB Slammin Posted August 12, 2005 Share Posted August 12, 2005 ---------------- On 8/12/2005 12:14:02 AM William F. Gil McDermott wrote: I like D-Man. We've had some debates. He suggests deep questions. I suspect that what achieves "slam" depends on what "slam is". And maybe other products of the reproduction system trash it. I am more than willing to admit that some stuff has "slam". Telarc recordings on the Forte II at the office reproduce the slam of the drum well. My guess is that "slam" is the product of an optimally dampted system with a lot of power. Gil ---------------- ................My guess is that "slam" is the product of an optimally dampted system with a lot of power............ Works for me Gil. Regards, Terry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrWho Posted August 12, 2005 Share Posted August 12, 2005 ---------------- On 8/11/2005 3:45:09 PM D-MAN wrote: The woofer moves much more air than the midrange driver for the same frequency (the crossover point is the determining factor along with the low frequency capability of the midrange driver in question). That's a matter of physics (diaphragm diameter X excursion). ---------------- For the same SPL the woofer is just undergoing less excursion than the midrange driver (depending on the relative effects of the horns in this situation). The same SPL and similar dispersion pattern = same amount of air moved. The driver that does it with less distortion however is its own in depth discussion. I think dragon made a good point which is often overlooked...if the source material doesn't have "slam", then you shouldn't be introducing slam with modifications to the speaker (which is essentially an expensive EQ). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edwinr Posted August 12, 2005 Share Posted August 12, 2005 The ideal for me is to have both the slam and the extension. It may be difficult for one bass driver to do this. If the one bass driver is able to work hard in the 50 hz to say 120 hz range, this may have to be at the expense of extension. I guess this is where the sub comes in. So in effect, we need a 4 way loudspeaker, rather than the popular 3 way, to deliver the optimum bass response with both slam and extension. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dragonfyr Posted August 12, 2005 Share Posted August 12, 2005 I am responding to what seems to be a divergent trend here. I am not sure what is meant by wanting one 'characterisitic' over the other! (given, of course, that we have defined what the very specific technical term "slam" actually means!) And I would disagree if one wants one characterisitic over the other, in the sense that a properly designed SYSTEM, being capable of reproducing from the first octave upwards, should accurately reproduce 'all' frequencies!! I prefer accurate reproduction of source material. I am funny that way. And I am not sure which isolated characteristic does 'accurate'!!!! Given that, I am not sure why someone wants one aspect over another! And, if you cannot reproduce the lowest octaves, you are stuck with a limitation of reproducing mid bass without the lower frequency extension. And if you over-emphasize the mid bass peaks and you have a thump car! Whoopee!!!!!! I would vehemenently disagree with the validity of creating a system that over-emphasizes the mid bass at the expense of accuracy, even if you like the 'slammin thump car feel'! But of course you are free to do so! And if you prefer an amusement park ride, by all means, have fun! Just have the integrity to recognize the difference! And please do not say that it is superior to accurate reproduction!! PS Slam seems to refer to the visceral sensation, but I dare say that the lowest octave creates even more of a visceral sensation at higher volumes. But then I guess most know it only as a kick drum! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JJkizak Posted August 12, 2005 Share Posted August 12, 2005 I'm not sure if the term "slam" is appropriate. I kind of like the term "sensual clobberation". The difference between a bass drum going "bam" and "kaboom, what the hell was that?" The AK-100 gives me that and the added Equalizer cuts down that 400-600 response. The newer mixes seem to do better because of my dual receiver setup, one powering the K-horns and the other powering everything else. The AK-100 and equalizer are in the K-horns only. SPL comes into the equation very rapidly in my poor acoustic environment and high levels tend to change things between lows, mids, and highs. I figure it will take me another 20 years to figure it out. JJK Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sunnysal Posted August 12, 2005 Share Posted August 12, 2005 I am not sure why one would worry about which horn the frequency comes out of, if the jubilee bin handles up to 1500 why should it be bad? would it be the fact that it is folded? I remember the cobraflex is folded and it is a HF horn... thanks, tony Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duke Spinner Posted August 12, 2005 Share Posted August 12, 2005 Cobraflex ...??? i thought that was a Paging Horn, Tony ...... years ago, i tossed out a ton of those Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duke Spinner Posted August 12, 2005 Share Posted August 12, 2005 Tossed a lotta those EV horns too ...the beige colored ones ..... Yuck ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duke Spinner Posted August 12, 2005 Share Posted August 12, 2005 who mentioned Car Stereo ...??? no we're not talking the farty rumble of some kid's car here..... i look for two things ... Tight "thump", and the "whack" .. one each from the Kick Drum, and the Snare head........ i could care about extension ... most live music is rolled off heavy at 30 hz, to keep down stage rumble Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sunnysal Posted August 12, 2005 Share Posted August 12, 2005 duke, the EV Cobraflex was designed as a voice range horn primarily but it has 100x60 coverage and handles 300hz-5khz very nicely...I few k-horn people are using them in their top sections and seem to like them a LOT! http://www.electrovoice.com/electrovoice/EVfiles.nsf/lookup/CobreflexIII-eds/$File/CobreflexIII-eds.pdf#search='cobraflex%20horn' I used the cobraflex as an example of folded horns that handle high frequencies (there are obviously others out there) because I was not sure why Dean poo-pooed the jubilee crossing over at 1,200hz. regards, tony BTW here is an AA thread about this: http://www.audioasylum.com/forums/hug/messages/52582.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D-MAN Posted August 12, 2005 Author Share Posted August 12, 2005 Dean, regarding the limitations of the Khorn foldings on the upper bass frequencies, I would agree with your statement that colorations coming out of the bass bin are to be avoided. But even if you swap drivers in a Khorn with an appropriate T/S substitute, you WILL change the bandpass. What I've found is that the K33E is suprizingly "sloppy" in the upper bass articulation. Other drivers are much "tighter" and controlled. That impacts low frequencies which benefit from "looseness", but increases mid-and-upper bass. That's all. It's a different "flavor". Klipsch is publishing the new Khorn as being crossed over at 450Hz. I take that as an indicator that I'm on the right track - but the ONE thing that they DIDN'T DO is change drivers. And THAT is the BIGGIE on changing the overall response or "flavor". DM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
InnovaZero Posted August 12, 2005 Share Posted August 12, 2005 Slam = controlling your heartbeat Low = shaking your insides out My Sunfire Signature can do both, but it's more of a low freq. driver. However the Signature has been tested to pound 80lbs of sheer force at max throw. That is more then enough for me rofl. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sunnysal Posted August 12, 2005 Share Posted August 12, 2005 bigdnfay, How did you decide on where to crossover the jubilee bass bin? I would think the two best choices would be 300hz or 1100hz (to stay out of the way of the primaries of most instruments...I would love to learn why it would be bad to run the jubilee bass bin so high, the graphs seem to indicate decent reponse all the way up to about 1500hz...thanks, tony Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrWho Posted August 12, 2005 Share Posted August 12, 2005 One of the major attractions to hornloaded speakers is that it greatly reduces frequency modulation distortion (aka doppler distortion). It is a distortion inherant in the design where the frequency response is modulated as the same driver is trying to reproduce higher and lower frequencies at the same time. The greater the intended bandwidth for the speaker, the greater the FMD. Hornloading a speaker helps reduce these effects because FMD is a product of cone excursion (hornloading reduces cone excursion). All the single driver lowther speakers also spec out well, but they certainly don't sound too good (just my own opinion of course). There is one other attribute with the khorn that makes me shudder when I hear about extending it's HF response, and that is because there is such a huge delay in the signal between the bass bin and the MF horn. If you want to get that slam back, start by bi- or tri-amping your system and implement some time correction on the bass bin. I'd hate to use a kickdrum as an example, but the location of the crossover is essentially causing the attack to arrive just slightly before the meat of the sound (800Hz and up arrives first, followed by the 100Hz and lower boom). Ironically, this tends to make drums sound good because it's always good to have space in music. However, with an instrument like a cello or human voice - the ear naturally compensates for the lack of low end from the original attack of the sound, and then you've got this low end warbling nonsense coming too late which just presents this tubby attribute to the sound (and i associate "tubby" as being nearly the opposite of "slam"). All you need are a good pair of headphones to hear the difference (even better if you can listen to both the headphones and horns at the same time). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D-MAN Posted August 12, 2005 Author Share Posted August 12, 2005 ---------------- On 8/12/2005 3:34:21 AM dragonfyr wrote: I am responding to what seems to be a divergent trend here. I am not sure what is meant by wanting one 'characterisitic' over the other! (given, of course, that we have defined what the very specific technical term "slam" actually means!) And I would disagree if one wants one characterisitic over the other, in the sense that a properly designed SYSTEM, being capable of reproducing from the first octave upwards, should accurately reproduce 'all' frequencies!! I prefer accurate reproduction of source material. I am funny that way. And I am not sure which isolated characteristic does 'accurate'!!!! ---------------- Hey, my ****'s colored now, too. I've been contaminated! The point I am making is that for a given SINGLE THROAT HORN and a given signal, different drivers each have their own respective qualities that effect the sound (EVEN if the T/S params are EXTREMELY close to each other). Differences in the basket frame design, cone weight, or slight variances in excursion can all change the sound, by emphasizing one aspect of the electro-mechanical process over another. Throat opening transfer efficiencies, and other variables all enter into the mix although the overall SPL remains the same, the qualities of certain ranges or combinations of frequencies are noticably different. The "flavor" of the horn/driver combination, if you will. Since there is NO single driver that you can EVER buy that provides a truly flat response, you can only make a choice as to which "flavor" of response you happen to prefer. It is also a matter of physics that the bass horn driver be capable of lows (how low is the problem) as well as reaching far enough up the spectrum to provide adequate "punch" (what IS adequate "punch"?). The wider (and flatter) the spread, the harder to technically pull it off. It's always going to be a compromise...enter in the economic factors and now its a sticky-wicket. The point is, that you HAVE to make a choice. There's NO wide and FLAT RESPONSE available and never will be, nor can a single driver realistically and EQUALLY do both at the same time. This leads me in the direction of the Jubilee and its twin 12" drivers as a viable albeit more expensive solution. What about 4 x 10" drivers instead? DM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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