Questions about La Scala Industrials

[Slon]

Hi,

I'm looking to buy a pair of used La Scala Industrial speakers. I'm told that the LSIs are out of production, and only the home models are still made.

Here are the difference I think I know between the LSIs and the LS Homes:

1) LSIs are black, LS Homes are birch.

2) LSIs have handles, LS Homes do not have handles.

Are these differences accurate? Are there more differences I am unaware of? Could I just get a pair of La Scala Home speakers and paint them black and install handles?

I am planning on using these speakers for the PA of a rock band. Mainly, it'll be pushing vocals and keyboards in an 11'x15' rehersal space. I have a Crown CE-2000 power amp and a Mackie 1604-VLZ-Pro mixer.

Any ideas?

Andy

[djk]

The LSI had a different woofer too.The stock LaScala with the K33 woofer was rated at 100W RMS long term.With the K43 it was rated at 200W.While the midrange sounds better with the K43 there is less bass.The Crown CE2000 is too much power for either.I would recommend you buy/build something with two 12" direct radiators (JBL2206) per box and bi-amp with a 2" driver (JBL 2450/2446/2445 on a 2380A) at 1200hz.

[Slon]

Okay, so the LSI had a K43 whereas the home has the K33. Is it also true that the LSIs were black (whereas home were birch) and also had handles (whereas the homes don't)?

Someone reccomended JBL 15" Eons to me if I can't find the LSIs, but nobody save for djk has told me that the Crown CE-2000 would overpower a pair of LSIs. Comments? Proofs?

I am going to run the power amp in "mono-bridged" setup. Is that the same thing as "bi-amped"? As you can tell I know next to nothing about this stuff.

Thanks,

Andy

[Ray Garrison]

Slon,

The home version of the La Scala comes in either raw birch or painted black, with an optional lacquer finish. Mine are painted black. Neither finish is going to stand up well to touring, you'll find yourself chipping the outer lamination off the plywood all around the edges.

The home La Scalas do not have handles. It would be easy and would not damage anything by screwing some drawer handles onto the cabinet sides. Also, the LSI had corner protectors on them (little metal caps that fit over the corners) to keep them from getting dinged.

That Crown puts between 400 and 600 watts into the La Scala's impedence. That'd be way overkill for any home use, but if you're going to be using them for the band, you can probably use the power. DON'T EVEN THINK ABOUT BRIDGING THE CROWN, AT 1500 WATTS YOU'LL FRY THE SPEAKERS. the CE-2000 is on the high side of what's safe with La Scalas with the K33 woofer, you might want to think about switching for the K43. Long term reliability might be better.

Bi-amped means running two channels of amplification into each speaker, one channel for the low frequencies and one for the mid - high frequencies. Speakers must have a crossover that will allow this. La Scalas do, but you'll have to do some minor alterations to the way the drivers are connected to the crossover panel. Al K. and others have posted some tips on this - do a board search for "bi amp la scala" and you should find some posts. Mono-bridged means taking what is normally a stereo amp and configuring it (usually via flicking a switch on the amp) so that you get one monophonic channel with twice the voltage capability (or more) of the amp in stereo mode. To run a pair of speakers with mono bridged amps, you need two amps, one for left and one for right. To biamp a pair of speakers using mono bridged amps, you need four amps - one for left high, left low, right high and right low.

Before you spend any bucks, I'd give Klipsch a call and talk to someone about using that amp with La Scalas. Their pro technical support group is both willing to help however they can and also very knowledgeable.

Ray

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Music is art

Audio is engineering

[Slon]

Thanks for ya'll's posts, they've been very helpful.

Ray (and anyone else): If the La Scala Homes painted black finish wouldn't stand up for touring, what's on the La Scala Industrials? Black...what?

Secondly, did the LSIs come with handles?

Third, if I did install handles on a pair of Homes, they'd have to be big ol huge handles, not tiny ones, so I and other guys could carry them across our shoulders in and out of vans, etc. I don't think this would be a problem to do.

Fourth, so I'm taking you as saying that a Crown CE-2000 running stereo (not bridged) wouldn't destroy a pair of Klipsch La Scalas with K43 woofers?

Fifth, with one Crown CE-2000 power amp, I will only be able to bi-amp one speaker, not both of the pair. So I'm probably going to end up just running stereo not-bi-amped (is there a term for not-bi-amped?) into two separate speakers.

So it seems I have a couple courses of action here. I could try to find a pair of used LSI speakers, make sure they are no biamp configed before I buy them or fix it to not be biamped configed after I buy them, make sure they have K43 subwoofers, make sure they have handles and a sturdy black color, etc. Or I could buy home models, stick in K43s (are these still in production?), figure out someway to protect the finish and corners, and add handles.

Finally, yeah, I'm going to call Klipsch tech support. They've offered to help me in the past when I sent an email asking if LSIs are still made, so, I know that they are friendly .

Andy

[djk]

"but nobody save for djk has told me that the Crown CE-2000 would overpower a pair of LSIs. Comments? Proofs?"

... ce_3q.gif (14434 bytes). Crown CE2000 . Stereo 975W 2 ohms;

660W 4 ohms; 400W 8 ohms; Bridged 1950W 4 ohms; 1320W 8 ohms. Let us see....a LaScala dips down to 4 ohms and a Crown CE2000 puts out 1950W in bridge mode.Not a problem.Keep a fire extinguisher handy.Even in stereo mode 660W will rip the voice coil off the cone (been there, done that)."Someone reccomended JBL 15" Eons to me if I can't find the LSIs" The non-powered EON 15s? They are rated for 250W. The powered EON 15 comes with a 130W amp for the woofer and a 50W amp for the horn."Internal Amplifier and Transducers are Carefully Matched for Optimum Performance and Reliability", in other words: the Crown CE2000 is kinda big for these too.The frequency response on the non-powered EON 15 is 10dB down at 60hz and 18Khz, the powered version has a ton of eq on the woofer and is 10dB down at 47hz.The old EON series had a problem bursting into flames so the new EON series employs "Sonic Guard" on the horn (a light bulb).... "JBL-EON1500 A cost effective version of the popular EON 15 series featuring SonicGuard

circuitry to protect the compression driver from overpowering." When you said you had a Crown CE2000 I assumed you needed a professional product and not a toy."Ray (and anyone else): If the La Scala Homes painted black finish wouldn't stand up for touring, what's on the La Scala Industrials? Black...what?

Secondly, did the LSIs come with handles?

Third, if I did install handles on a pair of Homes, they'd have to be big ol huge handles, not tiny ones, so I and other guys could carry them across our shoulders in and out of vans, etc. I don't think this would be a problem to do." The LaScala Industrial was a custom, built to order proposition.Handles were optional.Paint was optional.The fiberglass was optional.The corners and edging...optional.You ordered them a la carte.I had a full up pair.They weighed too much for the single pair of handles that Klipsch offered.Our nickname for them was "the BBMFs" (when loading the bus at 3AM at a bar called "So's Your Mother" on a street called MLK Parkway it is not a good idea to yell out "I'm ready for the BBMFs").SR4731A:

Dual 300 mm (12 ") Two-Way Sound Reinforcement System

For the musician, this system is ideal for larger rooms. For the sound rental company it can serve as the full range section of house P.A. and/or for side-fill.

Frequency Range: 40 Hz - 18 kHz (-10 dB)

Power Capacity: 1200 Watts (Continuous Pink Noise 50 Hz-5 kHz with a crest factor of 6 dB)

Sensitivity: 99 dB (1W @ 1m)

Nominal Impedance: 4 Ohms

Nominal Dispersion: 90° Horizontal x 50° Vertical

Crossover Frequency: 1.2 kHz

Components: LF Driver(s): (2) 2206H

MF/HF Driver: 2447J

MF/HF Horn: 2381

Dimensions (HxWxD): 1092 x 635 x 460 mm (43 x 25 x 18 in)

Weight: 55.4 kg (122 lb)

Biamp Operation: Recommended Crossover Frequency: 1.3 kHz - 1.5 kHz

LF Power/Nominal Impedance: 1200 Watts/4 Ohms

HF Power/Nominal Impedance: 150 Watts/16 Ohms

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

http://www.jblpro.com/pages/mi/sr_series.htm#SR4731A

This message has been edited by djk on 09-28-2001 at 06:31 AM

[JohnA]

Neither the LSI, nor the standard La Scala is in production at this time. You'll have to buy either used.

Technically, there is no such thing as a "Home" La Scala. La Scalas were made for pro use either in clubs and theaters (what you call the home version) or for touring, the LSI. There were at least 2 configurations of the LSI, one and 2 piece. All of the LSIs I've seen pictured had handles. All were black with corner and edge protectors. I use 2 pair of La Scalas in my home theater, but they take up a lot of room and the rear pair is purely overkill. I *could* be persuaded to sell those.

Your CE2000 is generally too powerful for one pair of La Scalas. Maybe if used to power 2 or 3 pair, it will be about right. If you use it, you will have to be very careful with your gain controls and prevent clicks, pops and squeals from feedback to keep from smoking some of the drivers.

John

[Slon]

I talked with Klipsch technical support twice (call 1-800-KLIPSCH, press "6" and wait).

They said that the LSIs do have handles, do have the braces on the corners, do have 1/4" jacks on the back, and do have K43 subwoofers.

They also said that a pair of LSIs (not the Home models, and the tech was using the term "Home", not me) would more than handle a Crown CE-2000 power amp. He said the K33 subwoofer in the home models is 100 watts and would die from the Crown CE-2000, but the K43 subwoofer in the LS Industrials (aka Pros, according to one tech) can handle 400 watts (I believe that's what he said) and could take the Crown just fine.

Any comments, agreement, disagreement, etc.?

Andy

[Ray Garrison]

Yeah, just one comment.

Let me know if your guys are ever in town around New Haven, Connecticut. I'd love to hear this setup.

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Music is art

Audio is engineering

[cc1091]

I once had 500 watts of Carver amp power coursing through my home Heresys (I could only stand it for about five minites though). They seemed no worse for wear. Although a few years later I did replace a squaker diaphram. Perhaps this was damaged those few years before, and I just didn't notice the problem til then?

Ear protection please.

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Denon AVR-2700

Denon DCD1500-II

Audio Control Octave

Phillips CDR-765

Nakamichi BX-100

Sony PS-LX3

Rotel RB-991

Klipsch Heresy (1981)

Klipsch RP-3

B&W602

MIT Terminator2 Bi-Wire

Computer system:

NAD 7130

Realistic Optimus Pro-7s (its only a computer system)

Klipsch KSW-10

[J M O N]

Slon:

I see you are in the DFW area. Is your name Larry Allen, and do the "other guys" play along side you on the Cowboys offensive line? If so, then I see no reaon why you couldn't pick them up and "cary them across your shoulders". In case you are not familiar with the La Scala, each one is approximately the size of a washing machine and each weigh in at around 125 pounds.

If you end up with the home La Scalas, I would be VERY careful about what type of handles you mount on them. Since the La Scalas are very heavy, the wrong type of handle may rip off of the speaker (which would be immediately followed by your La Scala hitting the ground).

As you have seemed to have figured out, the black paint is not what protects the La Scala from damage. It's the metal protection on the corners and edges of the Pro La Scala that do this. I am not sure about this, but there may have been a Pro La Scala that was made from fiberglass. I could be thinking about another speaker though. Maybe someone else can verify this. If so, it should be lighter.

If you are going to need these speakers to be portable, save your back and buy yourself a hand truck. I did and it was worth every penny.

BTW, if you do get these, let me know where you play these things at, I might like to take a listen. Is this for a band? DJ?

[Slon]

This is for a private party Coach and I are having with the cheerleaders. Oh wait, nevermind, this is actually for a nascent rock band. I'm operating out of Pro Rehearsal Studios right now which is actually right by Texas Stadium. You're welcome to help me plug these parts together and hear it, but I can't promise you any cheerleaders...

As you seem to have figured out, I'm quite a bit green behind the ears on this stuff. What is that hard material that guitar & bass speakers cabinents such as Crate's are generally made out of? I'm wondering if that's what's on the sides of the Industrial/Pros, as opposed to an elegant wood with black paint.

Thanks for the tip about the handles. I have a 4x10" Crate Thunderbass cabinent, and I know what lugging that thing around is like. Do you know the width, heighth, & length specs on the Pros?

Andy

[J M O N]

Slon:

I'm not very familiar with pro equipment, so I'm not sure what the material you are talking about is. It could be fiberglass or maybe just MDF or plywood with some type of coating applied. I do not know.

By the way, since you are not familiar with the La Scala, note that they are extremely efficient and can play very, very loud with very little power. Thus, your Crown superamp may be overkill. Some people on this board power their La Scalas/Khorns/Belles with 3 watt amps (yes, THREE watts!).

The La Scala was orignally designed for professional use. As such, cosmetics were not an issue and they are made only from birch plywood. You cannot get them in any other type of veneer. The Belle Klipsch was made to be the "home version" of the La Scala" and has a fancier cabinet. Belles are more expensive so many people use La Scalas for home use. La Scalas can be orded with a black lacquer finish, unfinished, or with a lacquer finish. They come without a front grill, but a grill can be ordered to cover the high and mid horns.

Here is more info on the La Scala:

The Heritage Series LaScala three-way loudspeaker provides a very Klipschorn®-like performance with sparkling highs; extreme output, yet smooth midrange; and the unsurpassed low distortion bass response of the patented Klipsch folded-horn woofer. Utilizing horn-loaded drivers similar to those in the Klipschorn® and Belle Klipsch, the LaScala is highly efficient and can produce high volumes with very little power and undetectable distortion. The LaScala effectively places a microscope on the music, enabling you to hear the intricate detail and emotional response of the artist.

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FREQUENCY RESPONSE: 45Hz-17.5kHz±3dB

SENSITIVITY: 104dB @ 1watt/1meter

POWER HANDLING: 100 watts maximum continuous (400 watts peak)

MAXIMUM ACOUSTIC OUTPUT: 124dB SPL

NOMINAL IMPEDANCE: 8 ohms

ENCLOSURE TYPE: Fully horn-loaded

TWEETER: K-77-M 1" (2.54cm) Phenolic diaphragm compression driver

HIGH FREQUENCY HORN: 90°x40° Exponential Horn

HIGH FREQUENCY CROSSOVER: 6000Hz

MIDRANGE: K-55-M 2" (5.08cm) Phenolic diaphragm compression driver

MID-FREQUENCY HORN: 90°x40° Exponential Horn

MID-FREQUENCY CROSSOVER: 400Hz

WOOFER: K-33-E 15" (38.1cm) Fiber-composite cone / folded horn-loaded

DIMENSIONS: 35.5" (90.17cm) x 23.75" (60.33cm) x 24.5" (62.23cm)

WEIGHT: 123 lbs. (55.84kg)

ENCLOSURE MATERIAL: Plywood & Medium density fiberboard construction (MDF)

FINISHES: Raw Birch, Black (Optional Lacquer)

YEARS BUILT: 1963 -

You can find this information by going to the Home Audio section, then go to Heritage, then La Scala. You can get specs and other information from there.

[Marvel]

djk,

You are a hoot!

Slon,

Pay close attention to what djk says. He KNOWS pro audio very well. He may sound opinionated (who isn't?), but he does know his stuff. Most people on this forum (wonderful, caring, helpful), are in this for home use. It is a whole other ball game when you move to PA use. I used some home built LS cabinets for PA use once, and they were made by djk. They rocked, but I also only used them within their limits. Actually, I never pushed them very hard at all. They sure weren't stock either.

You want to use them in an 11' by 15' rehearsal space? Watch out for open mics. Almost lost my hearing once with feedback doing a small room like that. (That was from some EV Eliminators from djk. The horns ARE efficient.

[Colin]

don't forget heavy duty casters on the bottom - why carry when you can roll?

what about stands to get them up and over the heads of the crowd?

At one point, I was living with a solid state Carver 1.5 amp capable of 750-watt peaks per channel. Everyonce in awhile, we would tempt fate and turn up the volume in our small 100 year old New England home. The live cannon shots on Telarcs 1812 Overture smacked the floor, tickled the toes, raised dust, rattled windows, impressed teenagers and created a tsunami sound wave big enough to flatten Tokyo.

So the LaScalas can probably handle musical peaks with your Crown, but I would not play them past half way ...

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horns, tubes, subs, leather couch & female vocalists

[Slon]

I'm probably going to add the casters and the stands later, as these will probably sit on my rehersal space for about a year before I am ready to go.

Right now I have an EV 757/B (I think that's the number) mike for lead vocals. It's a pretty loud mike.

When I bought the Mackie 1604-VLZ-Pro, a LAX Aural Enhancer SE-1000 (or was is it SE-1200) came with it. Anyone familiar with this product?

Andy

[TBrennan]

Slon--About 25 years ago I drummed in a punk-power trio and we used my LaScalas as PA speakers for jobs in bars, only vocals and drums were fed them. They heldup well. But if I was buying something today I'd go real prosound, JBL or EV, more rugged.

[Clint Phare]

I run LSI's in a movie theatre which also does some live performances. We run makie 1400i amps ( I believe the amps are rated at 225 per channel ). If the LED's on the front panel are telling, the amps rarely get out of idle. I do not believe you need anywhere near the power of the Crowns you have. We just had a live performance at the theatre and I am sure the SPL were at times well into the upper 90's, the amps were not being driven hard at all. These are effiecent speakers, when we opened the theatre we had one LSI and a old Dynaco ST 120 ( 60 watts ) and never ran into problems with sound pressure levels. The LSI's we have are split " B " cabinets with black fiberglass and aluminum edging. They have handles. The input via banana jacks is into the mid/ high cabinet where the crossover is with an output to the low freq cabinet and they are able to be bi- amped. They are rated at 200 watts. The only gripe I have with the speakers is I have to tear the whole mid/ high cabinet apart to wrap the horns with with moretite! Not an easy job with these cabinets.

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Just who is Dylan's Jokerman anyways?

[Slon]

The Sound Enhancer I had in mind is a LAX SE 1200. How does this product compare to, say, a BBE Sonic Maximizer? If the LAX isn't such a great thing, I'd rather not open it in order to resell it for higher.

Still having a hard time finding a pair of LSIs. Anybody have a used pair for sale? I'll give up my first born son!

Andy

[Lone Palm]

Do Not put castors under your La Scalas. Mine were on castors when I bought them. They must be on the floor or you will lose the bottom octave of bass.