reference vs. heritage

[jgatty]

I have a pair of Belles that I can keep or return to the original owner. I find putting a 5.1 package together difficult due to the limited center spk options. The reference series looks like a great package, but every response I have had from the Klipsch fans is to stick with a heritage set up. Does anybody want to speak up for the reference series, or is the sound hands down better if you stick it out and piece together a heritage series with perhaps heresy rears and center? By the way, any suggestions on Belle placement in a 22x19 rectangle would be appreciated, as the Belles are not sounding that great, rather harsh and confused in the midrange.

[sunburnwilly]

How do you have them set up in your room now ? What source are you driving them with ? What do you hope to attain ? What year are the Belles ? [8-)]

[jgatty]

The speakers are about 85 vintage and are set up about 10 feet apart on the 19 foot wall, 2.5 feet off the wall and angled slightly inward to the center/back of the room. Power is an Outlaw 755 (only using the two channels now) w/ and Outlaw processor.

[SCOOTERDOG]

Hi,

What type of video disply are you using? If you are using a rpbig

screen then this makes using another Belle difficult. Let us know what

you have in video and then we can help with suggestions. Also is it

possible to spread you Belles further apart since you have a long wall?

This will help greatly and produce a nice soundfield. I would also move

them closer to the wall. Toeing them in is good.

scooter

[sunburnwilly]

Hmm. , Sounds like the crossovers might need to be reworked . My Belles are '76 models with the original AA crossovers and they sound fine . My room is similar size , 16' x 20' , I have them 18" off the rear wall , and centerline of the speakers is about 11' . Midrange in these speakers is a bit pronounced so if your not used to them they may sound a bit harsh . It is definitly easier to assemble a Reference series set up but my Vote goes to the Heritage . Huge sound that is unequaled by the Reference series . Oh and allways , IMO . Reference folk are a little sensitive . " There seems to be a little smoke in my room right now . " I think my Brauts are done , gotta go .

[jgatty]

This system has a recent vintage 52"rptv; it is the game room and does not get the newer dlp unit (which coud actually sit atop a spkr). I am just frustrated with trying to set up a surround system with heritage, seem limited to heresys, and I am not hearing the same sound that I remember from these huge speakers from 15 years ago. Frankly, I am considering a switch to the PSB Image series, but I feel like a trader.

[sunburnwilly]

Curious as to what you mean that you are limited to Hereseys ? Um. , Cornwalls , La Scalas , more Belles , K-Horns ? By the way , The Brauts were Tasty !

[jgatty]

Well, belles or lascalas present a real positioning problem with the tv, as if the other non center channel spkrs didn't, and heresys seem to be recommended by most heritage fans as he proper sonic partner for a center channel. But, I am certainly open for suggestions. I am still wondering though about the accoustic qualities of the whole heritage thing that is supposed to be better than even Klipsh's own current product line, not only the reference but the ultra II, given that Klipsch could easily sell the heritage speakers in the face of some of the obscene "audiofile" prices being paid for speakers with 83db efficiency.

[sunburnwilly]

I agree about the positioning problem with a RPTV . I am using a Heresey as my center channel between my Belles , but with the difference in efficiency of the Belles and Hereseys you have to be creative . My processor is a Sony TA9000ES and uses distances instead of output levels . For home theater I have my Belles set at 9' and my single Heresey center at 15' ; all speaks are actualy 11' from my listening position . My rear Hereseys are set at actual distance . For home theatre this setup sounds good , it will sound better when get another amp and run 2 Hereseys in the center . I am happy with the setup because I value the quality of 2-Channel Music Reproduction more than Home Theatre . All that being said , if you are mainly iterested in home theatre reproduction and wanted to stick with Klipsch the THX Ultras or Reference Series are the easier way to go . I would rather have 5 Belles myself . A Belle center would make a great stand for my 50" DLP . To each his own .

[DrWho]

Well I can attest that I have never been unsatisfied with any of the

properly integrated reference speakers. Side by side, the heritage

lineup is more "powerful" sounding, but niether is a bad speaker. With

a good subwoofer I think the difference gets even smaller.

At the Klipsch pilgrimage, I thougt the THX Ultra II system was the

absolute best sounding system they had going (best I've ever heard

actually)...part of it was probably the great acoustics in their demo

room. The second best system was the lascala based HT setup in what

looked like a big conference room (no acoustical treatment).

Ironically, I found the synergy room to be the next best sounding (yes,

better than the new heritage demo room). I thought the new heritage

really sounded very shrill and unbearable (almost to the point of

wanting to leave) - dunno what it was because I don't think anybody

else experienced what I did. During the blind test, I thought the new

Cornwall III sounded way better than the RF-7; but it wasn't the best

RF7 sound I've ever heard either (not to mention volume differences).

So I hope this gives you a good perspective on where I'm coming from...

One of the biggest factors in speaker choice is speaker positioning and

the acoustics of the room...if you can't get the heritaged positioned

properly but can get the referenced right, then by all means go with

the reference lineup and don't look back. The center channel is like

75% of the sound in a movie, so if you can't get the center right, then

your sound is simply going to suck. But if you can get the heritage

series positioned correctly, then you'll prob notice that it disappears

easier than the reference lineup (provided you got good upstream

equipment of course).

I would claim however that the reference speakers sound smoother (perhaps even more accurate).

[Deang]

A forward midrange doesn't have anything to do with the harshness. The harshness is from the upper range of the squawker's response which is caused by air pressure build up in the back of the very small throat. The launch of the propogated wave off the mouth of the horn isn't smooth, and there is some rear reflected energy that goes back down into the throat. What's trying to get out meets up with what's coming back and you get distortion. The more power you use, the worse it is. An effective way of dealing with it is to roll off the squawker's top end response in order to decrease the total amount of energy being dumped into the K-55/K-400(1). We see a half-hearted attempt at this with the AK-2 and AK-3. The AK-4 uses an all out assault on the problem -- steep bandpass filter AND a lower crossover frequency. The earlier networks have no such mechanism, where the squakwer is just run full out. Distortion is low at only the most moderate of power levels. The most cost effective solution is an aftermarket network like the ALK or one of mine that uses a simple first order bandpass which at least kills the upper end response of the squawker's output before it goes completely to hell. The get to next level you have to yank the K-400/401 and go with a different horn. To get a treble that sounds as good as the RF-7's -- you need to dump the K-77.

Unless you are willing to dedicate considerable time and money into getting them to sound their best -- just go with Reference. Plug and play great sound. Add a RSW-15 and you're done. Yeah, you get added benefit from nice parts in the network -- but a few hundred dollars to get something damn near perfect is a lot different than a couple thousand.

Now, about those 30 year old AA's of yours. Trust me, they're not "fine". You just think they are because you have no point of reference. Your capacitors are for the most part shot. If you ever get around to dealing with it -- well, you're in for a shock.

The original poster is probably using the AL network. His caps are probably fine, but it's a reportedly awful sounding filter.

[Petrol]

A...unless you are willing to dedicate considerable time and money into getting them to sound their best -- just go with Reference. Plug and play great sound. Add a RSW-15 and you're done. Yeah, you get added benefit from nice parts in the network -- but a few hundred dollars to get something damn near perfect is a lot different than a couple thousand...

for my money, or lack there of, that's about all I would need to hear

[sunburnwilly]

Well Dean , I grew up with a guy who in 1979 bought a new pair of La Scalas . Up until 1991 the local Klipsch dealer had a room dedicated to Klipsch speaks ; no such thing as Heritage back then , or at least he never refered to them as such . When I took possesion of my Belles 2 months ago they sounded just as I expected them to , 30 yr. old crossovers and all . I do have a point of reference even though my ears had not heard the big horns in almost 15 yrs. . For 30 yr. old shot networks as you would say they sound very good , allthough a crossover upgrade is #2 on my list of next upgrades . " I simply do not have as much disposable income that some of may have " I still challenge you to come over and hear them for yourself and tell me they are crap , either way I know that will not happen ! Enjoy your lucrative business of fixing the RF's shortcomings , I feel you put in a pretty good plug for that in your previous post above . PS you can PM me about hearing my Belles as they are anytime ! WP

[Frzninvt]

Sunburn I just picked up a pair of '78 Belle's yesterday and they have the original AA's in them.

Yes you are correct they sound good just they way they are but with about $100-$125 investment to purchase two - 13uf Auricaps and four 2uf Auricaps solder them in, and hot glue them into place is a paltry investment for the sonic returns that you will receive. You could go with Kimbers to save a few bucks over the Auricaps, or save a bundle and go with Dayton's or Solens. All the above will be an improvement over the older caps that are now becoming effective resistors.

Honestly, if you think they sound good now you are in for a shocker! I have DeanG built DHA2Xover's in my rear Klipschorn's and in my center La Scala and would love to get a pair for my Belle's as well but my cash is tapped out so I am just going to update the capacitors in the networks myself for now.

Going Reference while logical and will certainly sound good is taking the easy way out, get creative, improvise, adapt, overcome! You will be glad you did!

[Deang]

"I still challenge you to come over and hear them for yourself and tell me they are crap..."

I didn't say your Belles sound like crap. What I said was that your neworks are due for a tune-up. I just thought it was interesting that you suggested the networks in his '85 LaScalas might be in need of being "reworked" while insisting yours are "fine".

Instead of me driving all the way to SC just to tell you same thing I'm telling you here, why don't you just send me your AA's so I can replace the caps. It won't cost you anything except shipping. To take advantage of this pretty good deal, all you have to do is come back into this thread a couple of weeks from now and eat some crow (hey, I've done it plenty myself). Unless of course it sounds worse, or whatever -- in which case you are perfectly free to come back and tell everyone how full of crap I am, and how I'm taking advantage of the forum just so I can feed my "lucrative" business -- which btw has got to be one of the funniest things I've read here in a while!

Got your email Charles.

[psg]

For 30 yr. old shot networks as you would say they sound very good ,

allthough a crossover upgrade is #2 on my list of next upgrades . " I

simply do not have as much disposable income that some of may have " I

still challenge you to come over and hear them for yourself and tell me

they are crap

My 27 year-old KHorns sounded great, but I still spent all of $50 on 4

Solen caps and 2 Auricaps. It did make a difference in the top

end. Much clearer and detailed output. I have turned down

the volume by 6 to 10 dB!

I think a switch to better crossovers would be money better spent than on an expensive CD player.

[sunburnwilly]

Sounds like it's time to pop the tops on the Belles , pull out the spare Hereseys , and take the Dean G challenge . I haven't had crow in awhile , but am prepared to eat my share . Actualy if you prepare it right crow isn't so bad , tastes kinda like spotted owl . [Y]

[Deang]

Shoot me an email at dgwescott@sbcglobal.net so I can get my shipping address to you. If the mood strikes, I may replace the plywood boards. It depends on what I find after I pull the old cans off. At any rate, I make 'em pretty so I don't think you'll be disappointed.

[boomer9911]

there is "no versus"....Heritage is a league of their own....go figure......

[jgatty]

It's kind of funny, I asked a question regarding the merits of the Heritage vs. the Reference series of speakers, and I now have a thread of debate over what needs to be done to make the Heritage spkr's sound smooth. God forbid that I should have suggested some heritical idea of purchasing another line of speakers. I am glad everyone has their passion, but I am more aligned with Klipsch for the value that I see than as a blind belief that Heritage speakers are the best thing anyone could do for their sound system. Just my HO.