Should Khorns be so bright?

[mikebse2a3]

After getting sidetracked restoring a pair of Decorator Khorns that I have had in storage for quite sometime, I opted to pick up a new set from my dealer which have a few demo hours on them. I set them up them up this evening. While they certainly look great, as the pair I got is finished in Mahogany, their sound is really not up to par with their appearance. They are placed flush in the corners along an 18' wall and the listening position is roughly 16' back from that wall, slightly behind direct center of the horns. The floor is carpeted with thick carpet, there are two decent sized couches in the room and one wall has a thick curtain which sits over a sliding glass door. They are being powered by a new pair of McIntosh MC501s connected to a McIntosh MX135 pre/pro. The source is a McIntosh MVP861. All of these components are connected with Kimber KCTG XLR cables and the speaker cable is Kimber BiFocal XLs. Initially upon playing these, the sound from the speakers was extremely bright, the midrange horns were blarring and the bass was a bit lacking (less than the Cornwalls they replaced). On some recordings they are almost unlistenable at moderate listening levels. As a test I placed fabric over the horns and it seemed to tame them quite a bit, but of course a lot of the detail was lost. Reluctantly, after that, I made some tone adjustments turning the treble down a few dbs and the bass up a bit. That certainly helped but I have always taken comfort in leaving the EQ flat as I feel it offers the purest undistorted sound. Though improved with the EQ adjustments, they still have that PA speaker bright, unmusical sound. The Cornwalls were not this extreme in their sound, but then again their drivers were quite a bit lower and out of ear level, where as the Khorn's drivers are closer to ear level.

They look great and they certainly were a task getting them set up on my own due to their size, but is there anything I can do to tone these speakers down or is this simply the nature of the beast? Perhaps I would be better suited with another type of speaker. I could easily return these, so I am not worried about that.... well maybe about my back

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

I will take some pictures of the setup tomorrow for those that want to see.

I will join others when I say that the Khorns shouldn't sound as you describe when they are working correctly and the Equipment, Room, and Setup compliments its needs like any other high quality speaker I've ever heard.

If you find no fault with the speakers then it very well could be that your room/setup is the area that is giving you the problem with the Khorns. The Khorns will play your room much different than the Cornwall because as you noted the drivers are vertically lower than the Khorn's Midrange and Tweeter which will change the reflections patterns from the room walls and even more because the Khorn is located in the room corners your room modes for better or worse will be different. when I've heard Khorns sound edgy in the treble one thing that can cause this is a lack of diffusion in the room. Diffusion will generally help any room to sound much smoother with a better tonal balance with whatever speakers you choose to use. PWK realised long ago that his Khorns could be blamed for bad sound when installed in certain room conditions and he realised diffusion would solve alot of those problems which is why he advised the polycylinder diffusor in the past.

A really good sound system requires all factors(Speaker/Room/Componets) to compliment each others needs and because most of us have certain things that we can't change or choose not too change the best we can do is find what works for our unique situations whether its different speakers or equipment or dealing with the room acoustics.

JTA said: Reluctantly, after that, I made some tone adjustments turning the treble down a few dbs and the bass up a bit. That certainly helped but I have always taken comfort in leaving the EQ flat as I feel it offers the purest undistorted sound. Though improved with the EQ adjustments, they still have that PA speaker bright, unmusical sound.

JTA I just would like to add that our rooms are equalizers in themselves both in TIME, FREQUENCY and AMPLITUDE. So an Equalizer used PROPERLY can be one tool for us to use to deal with what the room is doing to our sound!

GOOD LUCK JTA with whatever you choose to deal with this problem.

mike[]

[D-MAN]

No matter what, Khorns shoudl not sound as bad as described.

I would think:

1) the bass horns are completely unloaded in that they are not flush against a corner, resulting in no bass or very muddy sounding garbage.

2) the woofers are wired out-of-polarity with one-another. This will effectively cancel out the bass entirely (this is a likely culprit, and fits the scenario described).

3) the woofers are not connected, period.

4) the xover attenuation on the midrange driver is not attenuating - yes, stand by for some shrill and biting sqauking and spitting!

DM

[JTA]

Ok...

I tried different cables on everything, interconnects, speaker cable, I even switched over to RCAs. All of that made it sound worse. So it is not the cable.

I swapped out the tweeters, no change.

I swapped out the midrange drivers. Very subtle improvement.

I tried a new network in one of the speakers. No change.

When I pushed the speakers back into the wall I really jammed them in there. That seemed to make an improvement in bass. I still like the Cornwalls better though. I think that may just be preference, not bass output.

I took every pillow and small cushion in the house, along with quite a few blankets and have arranged them in the room in spots I felt would offer some resonance. Some slight improvement, but nothing major.

The problem area is definately the midrange. It has a very blarring, in your face sound, that on most vocals is very ringy. The sound is very fatiguing.

Is there anything I missed?

[tigerwoodKhorns]

I'd say you missed one thing (If you have not alreadt tried this). I believe that you stated that you bought the Mac gear along with the K Horns. Try using the gear that you previously used with the Cornwalls. Also try the cornwalls with the Mac gear.

Chris

[JTA]

I'd say you missed one thing (If you have not alreadt tried this). I believe that you stated that you bought the Mac gear along with the K Horns. Try using the gear that you previously used with the Cornwalls. Also try the cornwalls with the Mac gear.

Chris

The Mac gear I've had for a few months. I was running the Cornwalls on them until I got the Khorns in last night.

[TBrennan]

JTA---Many of the Klipschorn fans here don't like the sound of the midrange and go to considerable effort to improve (to their tastes) the sound using other drivers and horns, tweeters, crossovers---you name it. It's become a small cottage industry here. So don't feel that you're out of bounds.

Tastes vary.

[Parrot]

On some recordings they are almost unlistenable at moderate listening levels.

This isn't a mainstream opinion. I'd say it's probably a unique one. Hence, the obvious, something is not hooked up properly.

[JTA]

JTA---Many of the Klipschorn fans here don't like the sound of the midrange and go to considerable effort to improve (to their tastes) the sound using other drivers and horns, tweeters, crossovers---you name it. It's become a small cottage industry here. So don't feel that you're out of bounds.

Tastes vary.

Well I am glad I am not alone on this then. I honestly, am not looking to modify them. I'm sure they can be upgraded with better horns and drivers, but I'd rather not start hacking these up. It is a shame, because they sure are impressive to look at.

Ah well, I guess these are going back. I think any future purchases I make will need to be auditioned in my room first. That is the only way to make sure they will be right for me.

Thanks again to those of you who offered constructive help. Even though I did not come to a favorable resolution on these, I am glad I had a place like this to go and ask.

[Parrot]

Too bad you won't accept advice.

[JTA]

Too bad you won't accept advice.

With the exception of purchasing an external EQ, I think I addressed everything covered in this thread. Unless you want to tell me that the cabinets are flawed.

I'm sorry I am not happy with the speakers. Life goes on; you'll get over it in time. Keep your head up.... ok?

What is your address? Maybe I can send you some flowers and a nice sappy card to make you feel better.

-

[Parrot]

LOL! It's your loss, not mine. You just don't want to admit that you don't have them hooked up

right. I don't know if you're worried about wounding your pride, or

just that you have a bad case of Brennanitis and want to act like

Klipschorns are so bad that you can barely stand to hear them. Either

way, your problem was diagnosed way back on page one.

[JTA]

LOL! It's your loss, not mine. You just don't want to admit that you don't have them hooked up right. I don't know if you're worried about wounding your pride, or just that you have a bad case of Brennanitis and want to act like Klipschorns are so bad that you can barely stand to hear them. Either way, your problem was diagnosed way back on page one.

They are hooked up properly. I changed every single electrical piece inside the the cabinets with the exception of the woofers. I must have rewired these things ten times.

Insulting me is neither going to prove a point nor does it make you look very credible. I am not the one here with the wounded pride. If I was not interested in the assistance of others in getting these things 'fixed' I would not have wasted my time even posting it.

Get over it, its just a pair of speakers.

[TBrennan]

You put words in my mouth Parrot, I never said Khorns were bad, I said Heresys and LaScalas were bad. And you damned well should know it.

Listen Parrot, if someone doesn't like speakers you like it really doesn't reflect badly on your character, honestly. So you don't have to take it personally.

[Parrot]

If you rewire them up wrong ten times in a row, what do you expect to

change? My advice is run a couple of subwoofers by themselves. That may

give you the bass you seek. I wouldn't want midrange and highs to

offend you.

[Parrot]

You put words in my mouth Parrot, I never said

Khorns were bad, I said Heresys and LaScalas were bad. And you damned

well should know it.

Listen Parrot, if someone doesn't like

speakers you like it really doesn't reflect badly on your character,

honestly. So you don't have to take it personally.

It's hard to keep track of your opinions. One day you love Heresies,

the next you hate them. Brennanitis takes different forms, and can

apply to other Klipsch speakers besides Heresies and La Scalas, but the

essential characteristic of the disease is the need to troll.

I don't think you are so obtuse that you can't recognize that this guy

has his speakers hooked up wrong. He didn't say he preferred X, Y, or Z

speaker. That would be his prerogative. He said they are almost

unbearable. He's got other Klipsch speakers; he knows the flavor. But

if you're not being obtuse, what is it? Just being contrary for

attention?

[TBrennan]

Now that's funny, you accusing me of trolling. The pot calls the kettle black.

And you're inventing again. I think I've been anti-LaScala here for years. I liked Heresys then changed my mind. Period.

This fella has played around with the speakers and decided he didn't like them, especially the midrange. Now maybe the region between 400 and 600 bothered him. That's where the constricted throat of the K-400 would cause the most distortion. We have people here saying all the time that the speakers that use the K-400 sound better in the mids than those that use the K-600 so there's presumabley a difference. And it's reasonable that a person could interpret that difference as being worse instead of better.

So there you go. You may now return to being the Klipsch Kommisar on the lookout for those who don't toe the line.

[Parrot]

I just listened to my Klipschorns again and, by golly, JTA is right!

There is no bass. The midrange just blares. The highs pierce through my

skull and there's blood from my ears staining the carpet. What have I

been doing, listening to these awful things since 1987? Thank goodness

for the Klipsch Forum or I wouldn't know that their premier speaker was

so rotten. Tommy, can you hook me up with Edgar so I can order some

salad bowls? Your standard finder's fee applies, of course.

[jpm]

You know what Parrot? You're really a jerk. An arrogant, pompous, narcissistic jerk. I'm amazed the administrators allow you to post. Flame away jerk. I don't care if I get banned for saying this. I think you suck.

[Audio Flynn]

Strangest thread I have read in a while.

The pool of irrate K Horn owners percived by some of the posts seems odd; I really remeber few in my 5 years around here.

A reasonable cure would be an old Scott integrated, an MMF-5 TT and a reel of ZIP Cord.

Retro and simple.

[Parrot]

You know what Parrot? You're really a

jerk. An arrogant, pompous, narcissistic jerk. I'm amazed

the administrators allow you to post. Flame away jerk. I

don't care if I get banned for saying this. I think you

suck.

Hey! Only my mother can say things like that.