Should Khorns be so bright?

[arfz28]

Jpm, do your k-horns have the factory seals on the back of the tail board where the bass been goes against the wall and seals it into the corner? If not you will gain some bass by sealing them into the corners and will make a difference in the bass department.

[Parrot]

I just listened to my Khorns again and I am invoking my Brennan rights to change like the weather. It turns out they do have bass, the midrange isn't blaring, and the highs aren't piercing.

[LarryC]

Ah well, I guess these are going back.

That's a shame, because it sounds like you did as much as you possibly could. Mahogany is beautiful, moreover, and is no longer available on K-horns.

Let me suggest that you be sure you have at least 50 hours of playing time on them before loading them up to take back. They really don't sound good and the bass doesn't come in well, with less than 30 or 40 hrs.

Larry

[Deang]

Josh -- I notice in your signature you say you have some Decorator Klipschorn with AK-4 upgrades", and in one of your earlier posts you mentioned trying "the other networks". You also just recently said you tried other midrange drivers. So, I'm gathering that you have another set of Klipschorns with AK-4's in them -- and you spent the day swapping the networks and drivers with these new models -- is that correct?

[JTA]

Josh -- I notice in your signature you say you have some Decorator Klipschorn with AK-4 upgrades", and in one of your earlier posts you mentioned trying "the other networks". You also just recently said you tried other midrange drivers. So, I'm gathering that you have another set of Klipschorns with AK-4's in them -- and you spent the day swapping the networks and drivers with these new models -- is that correct?

I have a pair of D Khorns in storage, that were given to me as a gift. The last time I heard them was a very long time ago and only briefly. I remember them being great but honeslty I was so young at the time, anything loud would have probably made me think it was wonderful. I recently bought a complete AK4 kit for them with new K33s as I wanted to use them as a replacement for my Cornwalls (which I also recently restored) because I finally had some decent corners for them. I made a few posts here about getting plans and info on converting my Ds to Bs, but I was given the opportunity to pick up a beautiful set of Mahogany '04s for a very attractive price, so I jumped on it.

Basically, I went and got my AK4 kits for my Ds and put them in the new ones.

[edwinr]

As much as I admire Klipsch and its nostalgia, I never intended to have their speakers in my dream system. They are a good value, but far from what I ultimately want. I have a lot of seat time with speakers like Wilson, B&W, McIntosh and a variety of others.

I've spent a lot of time with Wilson et al as well. Each of these other brands have some very nice products. Each in turn has it's failings or weak points. So too does the Klipschorn. But overall, the Klipschorn is at least as good as, or some cases, better in some areas than it's competitors. Whether the Klipschorns end up as your ultimate speaker or not, is immaterial. The fact is the Klipschorn is capable of far superior sound reproduction than you appear to be getting at the moment.

The talk of adding subwoofers, cable changes and such like, is not going to change the fact that you are experiencing poor sound. In my view, such purchases are more sensible once your current system is performing as well as it can. I reckon you need to diagnose the problem first. Is there some guru you could talk to? Someone who could visit your home and help diagnose the problem? Do this before you start hauling x-overs etc, out, or throwing good money after bad.

The fact that your Klipschorns were ex demo rings some alarm bells for me. Are your speakers factory standard or has some bozo modified them?

EDIT: Whoops, I read your last post. So YOU changed the x-overs? (Sorry about the bozo comment).

[Deang]

O.K., I remember now -- you explained where the kits came from in one of the emails -- I'd forgotten about that. Yeah, take 'em back. You still have Klipschorns, and you can get them out of storage and start playing. Even just a set of ALKs so you adjust the attenuation level of the squawkers is probably all you need. Trachorns later if you want better performance. I get a load of emails from people asking me if there is anything I can do about the aggressive nature of the midrange -- so it's not like you're alone. TB is right about the K-400/401 -- it definitely has issues when loaded up.

So, what else does that dealer of yours have?

[JTA]

O.K., I remember now -- you explained where the kits came from in one of the emails -- I'd forgotten about that. Yeah, take 'em back. You still have Klipschorns, and you can get them out of storage and start playing. Even just a set of ALKs so you adjust the attenuation level of the squawkers is probably all you need. Trachorns later if you want better performance. I get a load of emails from people asking me if there is anything I can do about the aggressive nature of the midrange -- so it's not like you're alone. TB is right about the K-400/401 -- it definitely has issues when loaded up.

So, what else does that dealer of yours have?

Dean, yeah that makes a lot more sense. Someday I will come back to them. I own the Ds for nothing so its not like my investment is huge. Maybe come winter when I have some more free time I will rebuild them on my own and start playing around.

For speakers he has: Wilson, B&W, McIntosh, Martin Logan, Klipsch, JBL and a few other lines. He just got in a set of gorgeous automotive black Wilson Watt/Puppys and also a nice pair of B&W 800s. Those might be the to two front runners as my next choice, though I hadn't really planned on spending that big right now. Hey it isn't an illness if you admit it right?

One other option and I was thinking about taking a trip down to their facility in PA to check them out is Legacy Audio. Their Whipser speakers look like something I might really enjoy.

[Deang]

I like McIntosh speakers -- always have. Make sure you give them a good listen.

[Chris Robinson]

Even just a set of ALKs so you adjust the attenuation level of the squawkers is probably all you need.

Just reading this thread for the first time this morning. Sounds like you've done just about everything imaginable to tame the midrange.

Interestingly, I had the same issues with my 1976 KCBR's when I got them. I couldn't sit in the same room with them -- the midrange drilled a hole in my ample forehead. This with KT88 tube amplification and a nice tube preamp.

Al Klappenberger's crossovers allowed for midrange attentuation of 7db so I ordered a pair and found the difference to be night and day. Best $500 I ever spent.

Next I weatherstripped the tail board and upper lips of the bass bin. Bass came up quite a bit so I think my corners weren't quite square.

Next I put an upsampler on my Njoe Tjoeb 4000 and found that this mod made a lot of mediocre recordings sound much smoother and more tolerable. Nice even.

Finally, after moving out the KT88's and various amps in between (Scott, Eico), I went with SET (Wrights, then JF Lessard gear) and found my own personal sweet spot, sonically.

Ironically, the SET gear now rests with my old vertical Cornwalls in my 2-channel room. The combination is wonderful, but the Cornwalls don't load up a room with sound like the Klipschorns. The bass sounds a bit bigger than the Klipschorns, but it doesn't go as low and lacks a bit of the alacrity of the Klipschorn.

My Klipschorns are in storage right now awaiting a room remodel. If you'd like to try my ALK crossovers, just let me know. I'd be happy to ship them to you. I also know that Al Klappenberger will give you a 30-day test period on his, so if you ordered a pair from him, you could try them out at no risk.

Maybe old Deano has a snappy pair of like-minded crossovers of his own design?

Chris

[Tom Adams]

<hijack mode on>

Chris - Are you all moved in? Would like to hook up with you guys some time. []

Tom

<hijack mode off>

[Chris Robinson]

Tom,

Yeah, we're all moved in but there are some kitchen boxes that we haven't unpacked because we're going to gut it and family as soon as our house in MA sells (hopefully some month soon).

I'll PM my phone number and stuff and we can put something on the calendar!

Chris

[Tom Adams]

Tom,

Yeah, we're all moved in but there are some kitchen boxes that we haven't unpacked because we're going to gut it and family as soon as our house in MA sells (hopefully some month soon).

I'll PM my phone number and stuff and we can put something on the calendar!

Chris

Most excellent! Thanks Chris. BTW, the wife and I are making a trip up to Charleston (home of sunburnwilly) in a couple of weeks to demo some amps for the HT room. Anyhow....looking forward to meeting you guys in person.

We now return you to your regularly scheduled thread. []

Tom

[JDF]

I feel compelled to support Josh in his experience with the KHorns. He and I are both big fans of Klipsch but more importantly we both really value highly detailed, quality sound. As breathtaking as the appearance of the KHorns are (especially next to all of those amazing McIntosh components) I was also very dissappointed with the sound from these speakers. We both went over every connection, cable, and piece of hardware in this sound system again today, because I just simply could not believe they could sound anything but great. The sound that comes from these KHorns are extremely piercing and is seriously intolerable to listen to, for me. I had a splitting headache from these speakers instantly. The Cornwalls he had hooked up originally sounded far superior and much more of the sound he(as well as myself) like. It is very difficult to write these words about such an icon in the Klipsch line up but to see the grief Josh was catching from saying similar words was even more shocking.

[NOSValves]

Well then its pretty obvious something is wrong that is beyond you two's ability to over come. Maybe someone screwed with the crossovers in some way that is not obvious. Take the speakers back is my advise. But please don't take this to be anything like what a properly working pair of Klipsch Horns would sound like.

Craig

[JulieHeartKlipsch]

Well then its pretty obvious something is wrong

that is beyond you two's ability to over come. Maybe someone screwed

with the crossovers in some way that is not obvious. Take the speakers

back is my advise. But please don't take this to be anything like what

a properly working pair of Klipsch Horns would sound like.

Craig

My Heresies sound great and Klipschorns are much better than they

are! A guy I knew had a car that wouldn't run right

wouldn't hardly start. He tried EVERYTHING! He even drained his gas

tank because he thought there might be water in . He bought a new

distributor cap and spark plug wires. Finally he gave up and was

swearing that Chevys are no good. He had it tow truck to the shop

and they found a couple spark plug wires were connected to the wrong

numbers on the distributor cap. He then figured it was this guy he knew

who thought he was after his girlfriend, which wasn't true. When Geoff

put in new spark plug wires he hooked them up the same order as he took

them off one at a time but they were hooked up wrong to begin with

because of the tampering. So yes I agree with NOSV that they are

tampered with. I still kid him about Chevy being no good.

[IndyKlipschFan]

Could the wires on the AK 4 network on the outside be a bad connection wise or mixed up or not connecting right? Maybe they are not hooked from there to the insides being wrong too? Were all trying to help here by coming up with something?

After I installed the new AK- 4's I had a solder connection for my left woofer connection just inside the door. It simply fell off.... I thought I was hearing bass... just was awefully bad..until thank goodness when I opened the door.. it was right before me..a 10 min fix if that? Walla, sounds wonderful again!

Those of us with K horns, la scalas, and cornwalls.... whether now or in the past, know the "nuanses" pretty good. We are trying to help. Not insult you. Something is wrong.

I could joke and say get a el cheapo receiver to keep it simple in stereo mode, and see if it still sounds this way too.

Personally, it has been bouncing in my head all day something is wrong. If I was close by I would love to stop by and offer my 2 cents or have you come here and see if you feel mine have the same sound? I assure you, I love mine here! And I love the new AK-4 networks too. (more solid lows, a little less mids..and the new tweeters seem to go higher?) < At least these are my Non technical impressions but I assure you they are real too. A huge difference over the previous AK-2's...

[edwinr]

After reading this whole thread, I reckon you should take the things back. They're obviously not right. Those that are offering suggestions that Klipschorns usually sound bright and are borderline unlistenable at the best of times, are unconvincing in their arguments. Any further discussion relating to the tweaking or tinkering of these loudspeakers without substantial technical assistance from those that Do know what they're talking about (e.g. DeanG, NOSValves, BEC etc), is a waste of time.

[LarryC]

I believe you said you got an AK-4 kit for your decorators -- have you put that entire kit in your decorators and tried them in place of the mahogany's, and how did that sound?

I share most members' extreme puzzlement, especially if you swapped in your entire AK-4 kit and it still sounded the same. So, I am curious about the decorators/AK-4 sound.

There's gotta be a eureka moment in here somewhere. I'd sure hate to see those mahogany beauties get away. If you hadn't had the luxury of two K-horns and two AK-4 networks (a most unusual situation!), I'd wonder about the midrange drivers or voice coils being defective. Play something at moderate volume and put your ear to the mouth of the mid-range horn -- does the music sound more or less pure, or is it scratchy and distorted?

In addition to that, if I were there and since I'm familiar with how each individual drivers/horn sounds, I would disconnect the tweeters to see if the rest sounds OK, then disconnect the mid-range (and hook the tweet back up) and do the same. Wouldn't do much for you if you're not used to listening to them separately. Although you can't listen to the midrange alone without going through the crossover and disconnecting the woofer -- DO NOT put a full-range signal through the mid -- the above ear-in-the-horn mouth test might be good enough to tell just where the problem really lies.

Larry

[JTA]

After we tried fooling around with them again today, I really wished I could have come back here and said that something was wrong with them. The problem is, everything in them with the exception of the woofers was replaced, and the wiring, which was never wrong to begin with, has now been checked by three seperate people. You could blame the room, but frankly other speakers I have had in it sound just fine and there is almost zero echo. Perhaps there is something else at play here, but I feel as though every alternative has been exhausted as the electronics were replaced. Exchanging these for another pair would be pointless. We could blame the tree the plywood in them came from, I guess, but that is rather absurd. I've spent as much time on them that I feel they are worth, so I am moving on.

Anyway, thanks again guys. I already talked with the place that I got them from and they are taking them back no problem.

Perhaps someday, as I said to Dean, I will fiddle with my D Khorns and see if I can make something out of them that I and my friends enjoy listening to.