Anyone else think $4K retail for CW III's is excessive?

[Duke Spinner]

I suspect that setting the MSRP for the CWIII

is a real dilemma for Klipsch. I mean, they can't price it too

low for fear of percieved "cheapness" with regards to the Heritage

line. They can't set a price close to the RF7 for fear of making

the two compete against each other. They can't set it too high

for fear that it will impact the "saleability" of the product and

therefore make the re-introduction possibly flop. Let's face it,

when you've got a product that is composed of approximately $100 of

plywood, maybe $500 in electronics, and roughly $400 (at most) in

labor......what price do you sell it for???

Tom

Tom ........!

what about OVERHEAD...........????

the actual Cost of product ....it's Very Small these days....maybe 20%

Soooooooo....whadda ya got ....???

a $ 5000 price , to use your figures, to the Dealer ........

$ 10, 000 pr List Price...????

Yea, I'm sure it's a headache

[Duke Spinner]

US workers ....??

where do you think a cheap company like Eminince....

....is making Most of thier $ 50 speakers .....????

[Speedball]

Price it like the RF-7's and let the customer choose which sound he/she prefers....why not? I would bet they get more takers in the lower price range anyway. Look how much effort Klipsch is putting in the affordable multimedia speakers.

[pauln]

Klipsch is clearly taking a calculated risk on this business decision to remake the CW. The decision is probably based in part on years of folks bemoaning the withdrawl of the Cornwall. The inference is that a new release could be sucessfull if there is an eager and aggressive market ready and willing to buy them. Some posts in this thread question the strength and basis of that market.

I imagine one of the roles of this forum is to provide feedback from Klipsch speaker fans back to Klipsch the company so that they may make better informed business decisions about things like the re-issue of the Cornwall. They should want to know who is interested and what they will pay.

As was stated in The Maltese Falcon, "Business should be conducted in a business-like way". With all the current whining about the presumed price it would not surprise me if Klipsch is re-evaluating the future profit success of the CW release. And all this talk about it being a $1000 speaker must be really scaring the hell out of the marketing people.

[kenratboy]

Guys, remember these are new speakers being sold new.

Walk into any of your local audio stores and head for 'bigger'

speakers. Large Paradigm's, B&W's, etc. The biggest

floor standers in the series. The prices will start at usually a

few thousand dollars a pair for something decent. Few 6 or 8-inch

woofers, maybe a little midrange, and a dome tweeter of some

sort. Nothing terribly exciting. If you look at the 'good'

stuff, you are easily talking $4,000/pr. Now, consider in your

local hi-end audio store, how much you would have to spend to get a

speakers with some SERIOUS output and some SERIOUS bass. Do you

really think there is much under $3, 4,000 a pair?

In the NEW speaker market (not used, that is a baseline we are using

but cannot in this situation), what else compares with the bass output,

sound quality, sheer total output, etc.? Not a whole lot.

Why sell something unique and special for bargan basement prices?

Good speakers are not cheap.

[jt1stcav]

I for one am glad that Klipsch even made the effort to rethink their decision to remake a prototype Cornwall III...it will be interesting to see if indeed it ever enters today's audio marketplace.

You have to consider the time period when the Cornwall was originally introduced, when stereophonic high-fidelity sound was pretty much still in its infancy. Big boxy speakers were all the rage, especially in monophonic systems (HornEd could tell us all about this exciting time in audio history). Aside from firms such as Klipsch (and late-bloomer Klipsch-clone Shinall), JBL, Altec Lansing, Bozak, Tannoy, etc., who've been around in the '40s and '50s when BIG was IN, what present-day loudspeaker manufacturer still build huge boxy speaker enclosures for the consumer/audiophile market? Wilson Audio? None the size of Klipschorns if I recall. Dynaudio? They're tall, but IMO not wide. Avalon? Legacy Audio? Focal-JMlab? Dunlavy Audio Labs was darn close. B&W...naw. Avantgarde...yes and no, depending on what model you consider, and even with their odd open circular shape, their footprint may even be bigger.

Except for pro audio applications, I don't think there are too many boxy, refrigerator-sized loudspeakers out there for the average consumer. Today most large loudspeakers come as slim, floorstanding towers; that's the prefered style in today's modern home audio/theatre settings. Slim, and now thin (Klipsch is well aware of this trend with their latest Synergy Series SLX flat panel loudspeakers). Even bookshelf loudspeakers and monitors of today have shrunk in size...look at the latest minimonitors and satellite speakers out there...miniscule! Compared to 30 and 40 year old bookshelf loudspeakers, you almost need a magnifying glass to see these micro-speakers! And you gotta accept the politically-correct WAF nowadays. Bet there aren't too many non-audio savy wives and girlfriends out there that would want a pair of big crates spoiling their American Colonial furniture pieces!

Except for us Heritage fans who still love and appreciate these large plywood (and now MDF) boxes with horns, I don't really think there are too many others in the audio world that would even care if the Cornwall was resurrected. I for one would love to see the Cornwall III come to fruition, but I also wouldn't be too shocked if the prototype were THE only one ever built. Klipsch has to consider if there really is a viable market for such a venerable model, especially when the used market is still saturated with 30 year old Cornwalls that can be had for a fraction of what they cost new back in the day, and can now be highly modified to sound even better than today's $10,000 audiophile towers!

[Duke Spinner]

i'd bet they come in at a $4 -5000 list .........

there's just NO way they're goin' to market for less ......[:|]

as i said before ....used CW are underpriced

ColtrPhoto is sitting on a goldmine .........[]

[codhead]

"With all the current whining about the presumed price it would not surprise me if Klipsch is re-evaluating the future profit success of the CW release."

It's kind of funny how some folks characterize the questioning of seemingly inflated retail pricing as "whining", even though these same people most likely have no intention of purchasing a C III at these prices.

I would be very interested in the C III, should it prove to be a good value. Sorry, but I just don't subscribe to 100% margins every time a pair of hands touches a box. At over 2.5 times the rumored retail price of the H III, any semblance of value seems to be missing.

I think a couple of analogies from the automotive world are in order here.

If a new Chevrolet is as fast as a Ferrari, should it be priced the same? That's the same logic I see in many of the responses. Regardless of performance, the Chevy is still built like - a Chevy. There's a big difference in fit and finish - just like some of the speaker brands I see being compared to Klipsch.

Don't forget what happened when Ford reintroduced the last iteration of their venerable Thunderbird - at over 2 times the retail price of the previous model. They were not exactly flying off the dealer's lots, now were they? Did Ford repeat this mistake when they redesigned the Mustang? Nostalgia only goes so far.

If they are considering selling these at $4K, I sincerely hope that Klipsch does re-evaluate the future "profit success" of the CW release. Perhaps they can take a lesson from Ford, and just settle for "success" instead.

[pauln]

"With all the current whining about the presumed price it would not surprise me if Klipsch is re-evaluating the future profit success of the CW release."

It's kind of funny how some folks characterize the questioning of seemingly inflated retail pricing as "whining", even though these same people most likely have no intention of purchasing a C III at these prices.

...

If they are considering selling these at $4K, I sincerely hope that Klipsch does re-evaluate the future "profit success" of the CW release. Perhaps they can take a lesson from Ford, and just settle for "success" instead.

Well, in my case, I have no intention of purchasing a C III at these prices because I purchased new AL-4 LaScalas from Klipsch at these prices early this year. - really wanted to get them before they were dropped, changed, or repriced.

If they are considering selling the C III at $4K... I agree and heaven help us until the natural market forces play out. For every product in every market there is a price beyond which the net profit from the price-volume relation begins to turn back down. This local maxima is the natural point at which a price moves - the highest profitable price the market will bear.

Paul

[thirdeye]

Sorry, but I think everyone here A' either works for klipsch or B' is

truly in the belief these are the return of christ... Look at this,

1988 an average threshold Amp would run you around 3000.00, a Pass labs

amp today at about the same level will cost you around 3000.00.. And

Yes the newer amp is more advanced with finer parts and basically will

be what it is.

1985 mcintosh preamp, 2000.00, 2005 (today) easily could get a mcintosh

preamp for 2000.00 again with better parts, newer toys, remote etc

still 2 channel....

1990 top of the line Sony ES player, 3000.00, Today far more advanced Sony player, Not to mention SACD 3000.00 ?

Okay now lets take some speakers, anybody's except klipsch... Because

yes they are about the only company I can quote has doubled their price

on something like the K-horns in like 20 years, Cerwin VEGA, lets

say, they have a model with a 15" woofer , 3 way late 80's early 90's

easily right around 1000.00 a pair, okay lets take todays vega 15"

model, better crossovers, advanced drivers, decent cabinets, how much

at the local best buy? 286.00 a piece!!...and they are 102db efficient,

and not to mention 86lbs a piece, so very comprable to the size of the

CW's and this is not to say vegas

are great, but it is a popular model all you guys have seen, and very

easily close to the same amount of money put into the CWIII.... I

posted a pic just for fun

Look at ANY speaker manufacture and find if one single model made

popular by them has gone up by much more than 15%, again accept

Klipsch. A merridian Speaker system that was like 5000.00 in 1992

is still like 5000.00 in 2005.. SNELL, Polk, Top of the line Infinitys,

JBL, they are all within the same pricing for their newer models that

are similar to the old ones.

Look at Surround Receivers too, top dollar stuff can be had for around

1000.00 all day and night from several manufacturers, and back 15 years

ago, sure you could buy a top 2 channel receiver or pro-logic

unit, sometimes without a remote for around that money, now you

get a ton of stuff and 7 channels.

Look at DVD, HDTV, VCR's started out far more expensive than todays top DVD players.

this stuff is suppose to compete to some extent and reduce in price as

technology gets advanced in someways, but if people are willing to

shell out just for the hell of it then yes klipsch or anyone else will

rob you blind. AS a matter of fact this forum alone is giveing them

proof you are willing to pay, regardless what the market will bear.

And besides, isn't the new HIII suppose to be 1500.00? If so how could

the manufacturer justify even more than 1000.00 a pair higher for the

CIII, I mean all we are adding is a couple square foot of wood and 3"

to the driver, and I am sure that will not cost much to manufacture vs.

the smaller HIII,

Not to mention an RF7 is probably DOUBLE the manufacturing cost to build than the CIII would be.

This Audio market is very different than others, cars and things like

Motorcycles, that for some reason people decided Okay I'll pay 30,000

for 2 wheels and a Gas tank vs. 1988 would not fetch much more than

5-8000.00 or something is just ludicris. So basically you guys

can keep agreeing that you want to pay 4000.00 for a pile of 500.00

parts all you want, but I will not.

Now regardless if you agree with my statements and that is fine, I do

have some pretty good points and Valid facts. But it is this thinking

that has gotten this country into this problem in the first place "the

oh well it will happen anyway" of course some things will increase in

price, like my house it cost 75,000 in 1985 now its worth like 260,000

and I would never pay that for this cheap of construction house, but

somebody will.

[Number 9]

Except for us Heritage fans who still love

and appreciate these large plywood (and now MDF) boxes with horns, I

don't really think there are too many others in the audio world that

would even care if the Cornwall was resurrected.

I disagree on this point.

When Klipsch killed the Forte and Chorus when they did (circa 1997?), they could not have done it at a worst time. Why?

The whole low-powered SET amp movement was just getting started. In

fact, the movement back to tubes and vintage gear was also well

underway with the arrival of the Internet. They missed out on an

opportunity to ride this wave.

How many speakers today can be properly powered by 5-10 watts and don't

have to sit 5 feet out in a room? Not many. Sure you can get into

Lowthers or Fostex stuff, but you then get into other compromises.

This is where I see the niche for a Corwall III, or indeed, some other

speaker in the resurected heritage line that can be introduced in the

$3K to $5K a pair range. To feed those Paramours, Laurels, Decware

Zens, McIntosh MC30s/MC225s, Scott 299, Aleph J and 30 amps which

people appreciate for what they are, but are challenged in mating to

effecient speakers that are reasonably priced and well-engineered.

I think people what people really want, is a speaker that has all the

best attribues of the Cornwall (high effeciency, slam, engagement) with

some modern attributes (more modern dimensions, an impededance curve

does not go all over the map).

I do think if the old Cornwall dimensions are kept, there are few homes

(and wives) who will adopt them. Why spend $5K on a marginally improved

CIII when many C1s and C2s can be found for $1K or less. But if the

CIII is made to fit the "needs" of modern times, then it stands a very

good chance to be succesful.

[pauln]

I notice that if you go to the Products part of the Klipsch site and do "Help me choose" you get a page that has a breif explanation of 10 categories of Klipsch speakers. Guess which category is next to last? Hint: the last category is Discontinued.

I note that the Cornwall has been discontinued twice.

[seti]

If you build it they will buy it however they have to know about it

*marketing*.... Where would cisco, microsoft and bose be without

marketing?

If the finished cornwall looks as good as the new la scala it would

command attention and respect in a showroom but it has to get there

first. I am glad that klipsch is bringing back a heritage speaker but

sad to see the belle go however they could make it up by putting a

pretty consumer venered jubilee on the market []

[TBrennan]

The people at Klipsch have shown themselves to be very astute businesspeople, whatever they do with the Cornwall they'll probably have the angles figured.

Note that unlike the enthusiasts who post here many consumers would never buy used speakers. Note too that the new Cornwall would be an improvement over the traditional one in having a better tweeter.

As has been mentioned in terms of what else sells out there and for how much money a new Cornwall priced at $4000 would be a pretty good deal.

A note to Codhead; I think the new T-Bird failed because it was a bad implementation not a bad idea. I wonder how many potential buyers were put off by the insanely small trunk, I was. I was the target for the car and I would have bought one but the trunk was far too small for such a car, afterall the T-Bird was meant not as a sports-car but as a road car. My wife and I take many long car trips and would have loved the Bird but the trunk was just WAY too small for a road car. So we bought a CTS and Ford lost a sale and GM got one.

But I still drool a little everytime I see a Bird, especially an aquamarine one.

[codhead]

I think the new T-Bird failed because it was a bad implementation not a

bad idea. I wonder how many potential buyers were put off by the

insanely small trunk, I was. I was the target for the car and I would

have bought one but the trunk was far too small for such a car...

Like your trunk comments. I keep

thinking of a Goodfellas type of scenerio. "What was youse thinkin',

Jimmy. We'll never get Fat Eddy in the the trunk of your T-Bird."

"Shaddup and get me the saw."

[3dzapper]

The CIII may well fill another niche. The guy thing. For years us guys, well maybe not exactly we forum members, but guys in general have been forced to "Yes Dear" to the request for dainty little speakers for the sound system in the LR or family room. Now, with the growing number of dedicated HT rooms that are controlled by men, there may well be a resurgance of large dynamic loudspeakers. A LaScalla front three with CIII rears and HIII sides would be awesome at a price not much more than twice a high end cube system. Most likely the street price would be under $10K for all seven speakers. Might even squeak in a nice sub at 10K. For the two professional houshold in a modern 3500sqft house not an exorbitant sum, a bargain even compared to Watt/Puppies all around.

And they have a big trunk!

Back in '72 when I sold Fords, I used to joke that the trunk of the LTD Broughm had "space enough to sleep six". Ah '72 when cars were cars and men were men. Whatever happened to us?

Rick

[maxg]

I would expect the overseas market to be bigger for Heritage than the home market - would be interesting so see some sales figures on that - but in essense Klipsch Heritage is regarded as high end over here - horn loading not withstanding.

Whilst there are certainly audiophiles over here that do not like horns I have never heard one claim that the KHorn is anything other than a high end speaker.

$4000 does sound a bit high for the local marketplace - sadly I dont think we would see that price over here and would expect something around double as a retail price. Discounts and the rest would bring it back down but I would be very pleasantly surprised to see a final price below $6,000.

Will it sell at that level - not in thousands for sure - but probably enough to cover costs and even return a modest profit.

I also dont think the size/shape issue is such a biggie. These things seem to go in and out of fashion. It is notable that many manufacturers have some seriously large kit at their top end (anyone seen a Tannoy Westminster for example? - not a small beast). B&W 801's aint small - avantgardes will fill a room if you let them - there are many more examples.

I think there is room in the market for a new Cornwall - at this price, and if it improves on the orginal's sound that is all to the good too.

[Daddy Dee]

Max,

Thanks for your take on the European market. I think this is

fascinating and I am delighted to see Klipsch well regarded in Europe.