Manuel Delaflor Posted September 29, 2001 Share Posted September 29, 2001 Im a proud owner of an old set of Heresys, I drive them with "just" a 20watts p/channel amplifier and recently coupled them with a KSW12 (this filled the only thing I didnt liked about the Heresys). I love the sound they make and up today I still need to hear a set of speakers able to sound more "alive" than they do. Still, with all the new line of speakers from Klipsch and other brands, I wonder what is the general opinion about things like soundstage and imaging regarding the "outdated" design on the Heresys. For example, I have read a lot of general complains about horns related to imaging, but when I listen to my friends setups (Paradigms, NHTs, Mirages, even one with Kenwood speakers) I don't find anything really different (well, except for the Kenwoods, they sound horrible). Whats more, I like better the clarity of my speakers than all their speakers and find the soundstage to be really similar. Opinions please? This message has been edited by Manuel on 09-29-2001 at 09:56 PM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rowooo Posted September 30, 2001 Share Posted September 30, 2001 Manuel....Save your time and money and keep your Heresys. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Posted September 30, 2001 Share Posted September 30, 2001 Where did you read about the bad imaging of horns? The accuracy of the mid-range usually makes for a great sonic illusion. Please be aware that placement of horns is quite different from the placement of conventional sealed cone speakers. Once properly placed, the sound stage of horns will be wider than that of typical speakers. It may or may not be deeper - depending on far out into the room you have your speakers. But all other things being equal, the soundstage of the horns is more of a wide oval than the round circle described for many conventional cone speakers. In completely unscientific and horrible dealership presentations, I find that many of the moderately priced speakers do sound fairly similar and do image reasonably well. Even my sisters little Infinity speakers could image a female vocalist when pulled away from the walls and set upon a pair of kitchen chairs. With the incredible dynamic range of Klipschs big old horns, dynamic instruments like pianos and drums can come very close to sounding live - keep them and start saving up to add more of them for front and rear channels ... ------------------ horns, tubes, subs, leather couch & female vocalists This message has been edited by Colin on 09-30-2001 at 11:42 AM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Posted September 30, 2001 Share Posted September 30, 2001 P.S. Most people do not have their stereo set-up for soundstage. If you take the time and trouble to set up your speakers properly, they will image better than your friends. To my ears, the sonic illusion of a live band when my eyes are closed, is best accomplished with a soundstage that has a lot of "air" around it - on the sides somehow and behind the band, kind of. This is elusive stuff, really, because it is not so much hearing as it is a "feeling" and much of it may be beyond typical measurements. But, try moving your sub-woofer somewhere near the middle of your soundstage. Most sub-woofers below the $1k mark do a good job (okay, wonderful job, if you have never had a sub-woofer before) of reproducing the middle to upper bass regions. This is an area of somewhere around 80 Hz to about 250 Hz. This area of bass is locatable by ear. You can close your eyes and guess where it is coming from. Therefore, moving your mid bass woofer to the middle of your sound stage (along the wall you face) helps nail down the location of the singer and the instruments. You may also find that makes the sonic hologram appear taller. And this definitely helps with the 3D illusion ... ------------------ horns, tubes, subs, leather couch & female vocalists This message has been edited by Colin on 09-30-2001 at 11:39 AM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheEAR Posted September 30, 2001 Share Posted September 30, 2001 Nostalgia reigns supreme! Still I have to say that horn loaded speakers dont have bad imaging.Klipsch and some other brands of horn loaded speakers have good imaging. Even the huge Altec Voice of the Theater speakers sound quite good thank you. Its a matter of positioning the speakers and tilting then in. TheEAR(s) Now theears Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manuel Delaflor Posted September 30, 2001 Author Share Posted September 30, 2001 Thanks for all the replies. I guess my speakers are still that good! hehe. Since the very first time I auditioned them I fall in love because the inmense clarity reached by the speaker, specially by the mid horns. Every wind instrument of the orchestra sounded like the real thing, vivid, present, alive. In fact, I think this is the best thing about the Heresy's, newer Klipsch speakers still have the horn tweeter, but I think is the mids horn the one that makes the Heritage line so good. What do you all think about this point? By the way, since your answers I have experienced with toeing my speakers in and all I can say is WOW. The soundstage is wider and deeper now. Thanks! I guess I will spend more time positioning my speakers... Ah, one more thing, the new Klipsch subs are "too much" for the Heresy's? because I read somewhere on this forums about the idea of matching the subs with the mains... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxg Posted October 1, 2001 Share Posted October 1, 2001 You have correctly identified the sole weakness of the Heresy's in comparison to newer speakers - bass. In all other respects Heresy's are more than a match for anything I have yet come across, except larger models in the Heritage range. I would include all of the newer Klipsch models in this. Whilst many of them are indeed impressive they cannot ultimately provide the staging, clarity and air of the Heresy's (IMHO). Further, I am a huge fan of sealed unit woofers. Whilst their bass response is limited it has a tightness to it that makes all bass-reflex systems sound like breaking wind. Stay with what you have. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manuel Delaflor Posted October 1, 2001 Author Share Posted October 1, 2001 quote: Originally posted by maxg: Further, I am a huge fan of sealed unit woofers. Whilst their bass response is limited it has a tightness to it that makes all bass-reflex systems sound like breaking wind. Maxg, yes, I agree with you in every aspect. About your last point, this is why I want to have the best matched sub for my Heresy's. Currently I run them with a KSW12, the results are incredible, but I wonder if the new line of subs would make a better job, I only hear music with this system, so I want a musical sub. Ideas? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manuel Delaflor Posted October 2, 2001 Author Share Posted October 2, 2001 I found this on another forum... what do you think? ______________________________________________ "In addition to the above advice, try putting the Heresy's on their side with tweeters toward the middle. I have been running mine in this manner ever since I was told about it. It seems the mid and tweeter horns are diffraction type that have wider frequency response perpendicular to their mounted axis. If you look at the original Cornwall's, the mid and tweeter horns were mounted verticle. This created both a dedicated left and right speaker. The design was well conceived, "but", keeping "stereo pairs" at Klipsch dealerships was frought with mistakes and difficulty. Klipsch later changed the Cornwall to have horizontally mounted horns. This solved their inventory problems at the cost of reduced imaging and soundstage. The Heresy was introduced later using the same drivers/horns combination. Since Heresy's are easily rotated to a horizontal position, you can try the horns mounted verticle as in the original Cornwalls. Use stands if you have them. Mine have been horizontal since I tried this nearly a year ago. The improvement was not subtle. Paul " Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eq_shadimar Posted October 2, 2001 Share Posted October 2, 2001 Heresy's suck. You need to rid of them right now ------------------ FOR SALE OR TRADE COMPLETE R*3 SYSTEM FOR 3 HERESY'S Main System - Cornwalls (L/R main) RC-3 RS-3's (white) SVS 20-39CS Harman Kardon AVR 510 Hafler P505 (running sub) ProMedia 4.2 v400 for PC Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxg Posted October 3, 2001 Share Posted October 3, 2001 Hmmm - mounting Heresy's on their side - wow - what a wild idea - will have to try it out - although I dont really have the space for it...ah well - another problem to be solved. As for a matching sub to the Heresy's the KSW 12 is the one most people would recommend. Right now I dont have any sub and am also looking for a suitable unit. I am planning to audition both Klipsch units (the new ones if they are available) and a Velodyne that has been recommended by a friend (cant remember the model - but it is a 15" unit). Will let you know what I decide (whenever I get round to this). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manuel Delaflor Posted October 3, 2001 Author Share Posted October 3, 2001 quote: Originally posted by maxg: Will let you know what I decide (whenever I get round to this). Excellent! I look forward to see your impressions. Im thinking in one possibility. Currently I drive my Heresy's with few watts, and the KSW12 sounds good with them. If I increment the amplification I think the Heresy's have enough sensibility to make them sound impressibly loud, so I think that even the new line of subs could still be a match... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edster00 Posted October 3, 2001 Share Posted October 3, 2001 Your Heresy's are excellent speakers...if you are looking at other subs I would highly recommend the older SW-12 over the newer KSW-12! Much better sub IMHO. Not in the same league as the new Reference subs but they don't carry that high price tag either! check 'em out... ------------------ Ed W Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manuel Delaflor Posted October 3, 2001 Author Share Posted October 3, 2001 quote: Originally posted by edster00: check 'em out... Indeed looks good, but its not for sale anymore... I would have to buy a used one. This message has been edited by Manuel on 10-03-2001 at 07:38 PM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EvilMinion Posted October 18, 2001 Share Posted October 18, 2001 Manuel- I love my Heresys! I agree on the lack of bass response, though. I remedied the problem by changing the woofer. I used a JBL 123A (the white coned ones you see in the old L100s). Not just a small improvement in LF response. They won't go all the way to 20 Hz but they extend much farther than they did. I don't consider myself an audiophile, but the bass sounds quite good on the JBL driver. So now I have the sound of the Heresys that I love, plus way better low frequency extension. Maybe I should have just told you they're junk, and you should give them to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShapeShifter Posted October 18, 2001 Share Posted October 18, 2001 I love my Heresy's too. The clarity of music that they produce in the mid/high frequency ranges is so sweet and silky smooth. I originally remedied the low bass problem by placing a pair of Cornwalls under them. btw - I have a patent on this upgrade process, so send me your Heresy's, I will retrofit and return to you with a 15 year window. Wes ------------------ "KLIPSCH IS MUSIC"f> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobile homeless Posted October 19, 2001 Share Posted October 19, 2001 Soundstaging is a very illusive beast but the small mini-monitors really do it the best, especially for the money. One of the problems with horns is the fact that you use the corners to boost the bass using the walls as loading. Yes, this really widens the soundstate but does absolutely nothing for the depth. Obviously, toeing the speakers in to the listening session aids in getting the soundstage more focused and precise. On the other hand it is only when you really bring the speakers (conventional that is) way out from the wall and away from the side walls that a truly amazing soundstage can form. With my ProAc Mini Towers close to 8 feet from the wall and 5-6 feet from side walls, I can get a soundstage that extends to almost 10-20 feet BEHIND THE SPEAKERS! And on really good recordings, the drums might appear to actually be on the other side of the wall! Once you hear a properly defined soundstage, with the instuments located where they were in the recording, surrounded by air... it's truly a goosebump inducing experience. My ProAc Mini Towers with some good amps throw about the deepest soundstage (when the recording merits it) I have ever heard. The imaging is downright amazing as well. Of course, if the speaker does not have good tone or a harmonic richness, all might as well be lost. Horns definitely win the award in the immediciacy department, as well as dynamics. On the other hand, they just arent known for great imaging and are handicapped by ultrawide baffles and poor placement. kh http://12.16.160.65/system/set.htm f>s> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TBrennan Posted October 19, 2001 Share Posted October 19, 2001 Mobile--One could argue that huge soundstage and depth is an artificial effect caused by the uncontrolled, willy-nilly dispersion of direct-radiators, a pleasing effect perhaps but artifiacial nontheless. I've found that with very wide dispersion horns, 130 degree horizontal, I get a very wide soundstage and a great deal of depth. I don't like that sound though and prefer the tight focus I'm now getting with my Edgar Saladbowls. One nice thing about horns, when you really get into them, is the great variety of sound you can get simply changing flares, you can really dial-in what you prefer in terms of imaging and still retain the clarity, power and dynamics of horns. One guy at the Asylum, Paul Eizak, even has a completely dipolar EV horn rig, you wanna hear depth you should hear those, they wowed me. You're a DIY guy, I suspect that in several months those CWs you're buying will be unrecognizable. :-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eq_shadimar Posted October 19, 2001 Share Posted October 19, 2001 quote: Originally posted by eq_shadimar: Heresy's suck. You need to rid of them right now Ok I got my Heresys this week so you don't need to sell yours now Laters, ------------------ ...wake up to find out that we are the eyes of the world... Visit my webpage to see equipment Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TBrennan Posted October 19, 2001 Share Posted October 19, 2001 EQ--So you list your HT gear and leave out the most important thing, the TV? I always thought movies were a visual medium. The best movies ever made were silent or mono afterall---Sunrise, White Heat, The Searchers, Cabinet of Dr. Caligari, Sunset Blvd., Citizen Kane, Touch of Evil, Angels With Dirty Faces, Godfather, The Sea Hawk, Young Mr. Lincoln, Double Indemnity---none need surround sound but they all need a screen. :-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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