eq_shadimar Posted October 19, 2001 Share Posted October 19, 2001 Screen I don't need no stinkin' screen.. :-) Zenith PV4663BT 46" 4:3 RPTV (Non-HDTV) err thanks I have added it now ------------------ ...wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world... My Home Theater Page Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdm56 Posted October 19, 2001 Share Posted October 19, 2001 Image depth? BAH, HUMBUG! TB Brennan's got that 'coon tree'd. It is just a function of bouncing enough sound off the rear wall, with enough delay relative to the direct sound for the brain to process the reflected sound as "depth". It doesn't exist. It's a room / speaker effect. If a recording has depth, you can hear it on cornerhorns. ------------------ JDMcCall Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobile homeless Posted October 20, 2001 Share Posted October 20, 2001 Well, one thing is becoming quite obivous; I dont think ye olde James D. McCall and I agree on just about anything soundwise. That's fine. Although, there is much more going on in the depth department then Sir James lets on, and your dismissal of depth being "not there" and soley a fuction of speaker and room bounderies directly followed by the notion that "If a recording has depth, you can hear it on cornerhorns" seems to a bit of a contradiction. Does depth exist or not?But yes, the room interaction DOES indeed have much to do with the ability to let the speakers REVEAL depth of soundtage, but youre the first person I have ever heard that says cornhorns can reproduce the same depth in a recording as some monitors removed from rear wall reflection. Horns do many things but when placed smack dab against the back wall, I can not imagine depth as to be one of the forefront capabilities. They do wonderful at the width of the soundstage (this from memory btw) and throw a BIG sound... I dont know what system you are listening to or what your experience is but I can tell you that different sets of speakers placed in the same position with the exact same amplification and source produce depth with different capabilities. If a pair of microphones in a live recording are placed out in the seats about 20 feet from the stage and you have the percussion another 15-20 feet behind the rest of the group, then the soundstage from these properly set up mics should be able to be recreated with the same perceived depth on a well setup two channel system. And as I said before, when listening to one of these recordings, to listen to the percussion section sounding likethey are literally BEHIND THE REAR WALL of your speakers and located in a open space with air around the performers, the musicians located in their proper places on stage....WELL, James.... it is something to behold. This type of soundstage setup is frowned upon by some of the audio crowd as false, but believe me, when you are experiencing it, and when you are in fact, familiar with the recording venue, then it is magic. Of course, if the tone is not there, then all might as well be lost. But James, you seem to operate on a fixed mental image of things that does not seem to bear fruit with the actual experiences... And by the way, depth of the soundstage is ALSO a product of your amplification. Some amps are able to reproduce it better than others. So it is not just a room reflection/speaker trick. James, bringing the speakers AWAY from walls is exactly what allows all most of the preceeding to take place as the sound is not reacting as much to the room bounderies. Horns, on the other hand, need the support of the corners and room bounderies to bost the bass....but this almost always comes at the expense of DEPTH if NOT WIDTH. What is your system my dear friend? khf>s> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdm56 Posted October 21, 2001 Share Posted October 21, 2001 What we have here...is failure...to c'municate! No, really, maybe I did not draw enough distinction between recorded depth information, and the apparent depth that can be created in room by pulling speakers away from the front wall. Particularly with bipolar or dipolar radiators. All I'm saying is that "even" cornerhorns can reproduce recorded depth. But true, they will not give you the warm fuzzy feeling that can be produced with the previously mentioned set-ups or systems. Exactly how can an amplifier effect the reproduction of depth? I've never "got" that one. My system? Quite humble by audiophile standards. Out of this world looney to most everyone I know. My music rig consists of a pair of '98 klipschorns driven by an 80Wx2 MOSFET Sony ES integrated amp, which is in turn fed 99.9% of the time by either a Sony ES CD player, or a Sony ES DAT recorder. A pair of Sennheiser HD-580's provide private music, and serve as a handy reference for judging "how hi the fi". Sincerely, "Sir James" (I think I could get used to that!) ------------------ JDMcCall Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Posted October 21, 2001 Share Posted October 21, 2001 aah, a Sony man, I once knew a Pioneer man, but I have yet to know a Sony man, and you know, I can't really say why I haven't met one either, for most of their products do impress me - and in the mass media consumer market, I do believe they help create the industry standard for many things, on the other hand, the only thing I bought recently from them was their $10 ear buds (better than Koss or cheap Jensen), because I think that other brands do a better job of offering a few less features for a whole lot less - I will confess to trolling through Best Buys speaker exhibit and the low cost Sony speakers actually do impress me the most for the money, since I do not know anything about their construction, except that their frequency extends well beyond the typical 20 kHz, I have to conclude that the extension has something to do with their more refined sound (when compared to JBL, KLH, Bose and another flimsy brand I can not think of the name right now). God, are the new low cost speakers made cheaply today, the cabinets of yesteryear are so much more solid. I do have a Sony SS-U3190 bookshelf speaker for which I am trying to find the frequency response and crossover points; any ideas? Oh BTW, all of the small speakers I have listened to imaged very well once they were pulled 3 to 4 feet (!) from the front and side walls. Even Consumer Reports, who declares that there is no audible difference between CD players (once again, an example of a small set of flawless specs erroneously misleading the public about seemingly immeasurable qualities), says that the modestly priced cone systems that they review should be placed away from the walls to get the best sound and image. This function is not difficult for a speaker with a wide frequency response when in phase. To me, the 3D sonic illusion does the most for suspending disbelief and making the boxes disappear ------------------ HORNS & subs; leather couch & feet up; lights out & tubes glowing! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EvilMinion Posted October 22, 2001 Share Posted October 22, 2001 I've got a Sony DE line receiver... Not all that impressed with it but the ES stuff is likely better. The DE doesn't have enough power supply in it. My old 50 WPC Technics has a bigger transformer and this thing's supposed to do 100x5. I also have a pair of the cheap Sony speakers.. For what they are, they're not that bad. I think I have maybe $150 in the pair. Was the first speakers I bought when I got into audio, along with the aforementioned receiver. I actually looked at Klipsch stuff in a store near me, and probably would have bought Synergy towers and some kinda receiver from them, but the sales staff was arrogant. So, I went with the Sony and was pretty happy with it. Next pair of speakers was my Heresys though. I love em, worth every penny. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdm56 Posted October 22, 2001 Share Posted October 22, 2001 Yes, a Sony man...currently. In previous audio lives I have been a Pioneer man, a Luxman man, a Hafler man and mix & match man. Does "even Consumer Reports" opinion only carry weight if it agrees with our own? Either they have credibility or they don't. To me, at least in audio matters, they don't. All pulling a speaker away from the wall can do is (1), turn down the bass; and (2), reduce the effect of early reflections, which of course can both be good things in particular situations. It can't improve reproduction of recorded image depth, only add room induced, artificial depth by creating a suitably delayed reflection off the front wall. A speaker located close to the front wall will also have a reflection from it, but it's delay relative to the direct sound is too short to allow the brain to perceive it as a separate sound. I think a lot of the "improved depth" attributed to pulling speakers away from the front wall actually can be linked to the reduction in bass that it also causes, thereby making the mids and highs stand out more. And it is those mids and highs that we use to localize sound, not bass. ------------------ JDMcCall Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Posted October 23, 2001 Share Posted October 23, 2001 I don't think the "improved depth" attributed to pulling speakers away from the front wall actually is linked to a significant reduction in bass causing the mid and high range frequencies to stand out more. I think it is the delayed reflection which creates the illusion of the stage where the sound was recorded. I had the opportunity to put this theory to a little test. Playing around with a small pair of Infinity two-way bookshelf speakers in four different positions, I found that the location of the them didn't reduce or improve the mid and upper bass decade, merely change the shape of the frequency response. I measured from 200 to 50 Hz (since the little speakers have no measurable output below that level). I used the Stereophile test CD #1, on a slow C weighted scale, at moderate volume, in a carpeted 14' x 17' room with 8' ceilings, on concrete, with an open back wall. I did use my 2A3 Paramours. Although I know speaker impedance affects the frequency response with tube amps, I did want results to reflect a real world situation. I found that: 1. Placing the speakers 4' from the front wall, 2' from the side and 40" high had a response within 3 dB from 200 to 80 Hz, a low point at 16 and 125 Hz and high points at 200 and 80 Hz. The response dropped 7 dB at 63 Hz. Soundstage was excellent: widest and deepest. 2. Placing the speakers 2' from the front wall, 4' from the side and 40" high had a response within 6 dB from 200 to 80 Hz, a high point at 200 Hz with the low at 160. The response dropped 4 dB at 63 Hz. Soundstage was excellent: wide and deep. 3. Placing the speakers in each corner, on the floor, had a response within 10 dB from 200 to 80 Hz, with a high point at 100 Hz that was 8 dB over the low at 160 Hz. The response dropped 6 dB at 63 Hz. Soundstage was surprisingly good: wide, but not deep. 4. Placing the speakers 4" from the front wall, 4' from the side walls, on the floor, had a response within 5 dB from 200 to 80 Hz, a high at 80 Hz and a low at 160 Hz. The response dropped 5 dB at 63 Hz. Soundstage was good: not wide, and not deep. Position one had the flattest response in this little test. Placing the speakers directly in the corners didn't sound too bad, but it was the wildest frequency response, creating a bump at 100 Hz. This is not a bad frequency to have some reinforcement. It can even improve the bass. In fact, only the corner placement lifted the response at 63 Hz to audible levels (63 dB). Pulling small speakers out from the walls doesn't significantly diminish the mid and upper bass response, but it did significantly improve the illusion of width and depth in the soundstage. Now to repeat this little test with the Klipsch LF-10 sub woofer and let you know what effect placement has on the lower bass regions Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manuel Delaflor Posted October 23, 2001 Author Share Posted October 23, 2001 This discussion has turned in to something really interesting. I don't believe that an amplifier can be a strong factor regarding imaging and soundstage, also, I think that speakers of different brands with the same type of drivers should sound almost equal regarding those matters. Location of the speakers, room acoustics and the recording are the relevant factors. I agree with those who say that wall reflections are all the "trick" about the depth of the soundstage and also I think imaging is a much more a subjective matter. Now, is there a way to define such terms in a scientific way like we do with frequency response? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdm56 Posted October 23, 2001 Share Posted October 23, 2001 So nice to see someone afflicted with the audio disease; moving speakers, measuring test tones, move again, yadayadayada. Ain't it fun? The looks I get from my li'l woman when she catches me engaged in "the ritual" in the music room at one in the morning are priceless. Nearly all "bookshelf" speakers are designed for flattest response on stands, away from room boundaries. They really shouldn't even call'em "bookshelf" speakers unless they are really designed to be used that way. But anyway, because of their design, you probably would get too much mid-bass from many of them if they are too close to walls or the floor. And again, because of their design (non-horn), a position too close to side walls will produce a strong early reflection that will smear the arrival of the direct, non-reflected sound. This gets to the great thing about horns, especially mid-range horns; they allow placement close to sidewalls or corners without smearing the sound. I don't believe proximity of even "normal" non-horn systems to the wall behind them should affect imaging; just bass response. BUT, when people put conventional speakers close to the wall behind the speakers, they also tend to create a listening position that is behind what would normally be considered the ideal sweet spot. And this can definitely have an adverse effect on imaging. So you can't really just move the speakers; you have to move the whole tringle formed by "connecting the dots", left speaker, right speaker, and listening position. If the listeners relationship to the speakers changes, imaging is bound to. Back to the beauty of cornerhorns: they allow corner placement which is usually the best place to do bass, and yet the mid and tweeter horns are not severely affected by the side walls, due to directivity of the horns, and the angle of the horns axis away from the walls (45 degree). ------------------ JDMcCall Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TBrennan Posted October 23, 2001 Share Posted October 23, 2001 JD understands horns. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdm56 Posted October 23, 2001 Share Posted October 23, 2001 TBrennan, Hey, thanks! I wouldn't say I really understand 'em, though. But I sure can appreciate their virtues. Ya know, we right-thinking individuals gotta stick together or the flat-earthers might take over! Nah, no offence to anyone really. Just because you don't all agree with me doesn't make you bad people. Just pitifully misguided! LOL ------------------ JDMcCall This message has been edited by James D McCall on 10-23-2001 at 11:26 PM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TBrennan Posted October 24, 2001 Share Posted October 24, 2001 JD--Well I'm kinda Flat Earth myself with my collection of old Altecs, JBLs and EVs. :-) And I like tubes too but make no claims for them other than that <I> like them. Ahh, it doesn't matter anyway, no amp I ever heard sounds better than my buddy Kurt's newfangled TriPath digital DIY amp. Once people start hearing those things it all goes up for grabs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdm56 Posted October 25, 2001 Share Posted October 25, 2001 TB, Hey, just don't fall off the edge, OK? ------------------ JDMcCall Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boxx Posted May 19, 2014 Share Posted May 19, 2014 (edited) Well... with anything, from these revived threads, we get to be reminded of forum members from the past.... Edited May 19, 2014 by Boxx Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Morbius Posted May 20, 2014 Share Posted May 20, 2014 (edited) Hey Manuel, still got those Heresy's? Edited May 20, 2014 by Dr Morbius Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators dtel Posted May 20, 2014 Moderators Share Posted May 20, 2014 I doubt he will answer, he hasn't posted since 05. Your right Boxx there has been a long line of good people here, you know you read and don't notice changes, some are just slipping away doing other things, but I would bet there still listening to music. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SilverSport Posted May 20, 2014 Share Posted May 20, 2014 I like to read some of the differing opinions the same poster has then and now on some of the revived threads... Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eq_shadimar Posted May 20, 2014 Share Posted May 20, 2014 I still have my Heresys. Different TV now though Laters, Jeff Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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