3 Channel SET User meets SS Sub

[seti]

Ok I have been wrapped up in the nice comfortable blanket sound of SET

sound and I have just added my subwoofer which has 2 x 12inch Peerless

XLS drivers. The 2 drivers are on top of each other the one firing into

the other. The first driver is connected left to left right to right

and the other is connected left to right right to left or in phase out

of phase if that is the correct term. I have owned the Sub for two

years and just bought a Triad Bronze Sub Amp off of ebay 250watts @ 4

ohm. I was a little concerned it wouldn't be powerful enough but it's

ok now not so worried now. I am amazed how much information there is

45hz and below holy bass cow batman! I think the Sub has turned part of

my brain to choco pudding especially on Bjork album Post track 2. I am

trying to tune it so it is not so aggresive but alas the technology is

smarter than I. When in operation I find that I am adjusting for each

CD which does not seem right.

This sub amp has 4 settings input level which is basically a gain

control. Then I have these other two knobs which are Lowpass A and

Lowpass B 35hz to 250hz which the manual explains as "Each

control operated an independent 12db per octave low pass filter. The

two filters are in parallel and their effects are combined to

acheive 24db roll-off above the highest common frequency." I also have a Phase Control huh do what now I ain't never had no Phase Control befer what that do? The manual says "The

phase control adds up to 180 degrees of phase lag to the

subwoofers signal. Use it to improve the subwoofer to main speaker

blending, especially where the phase of the main signal may have been

inverted." If someone could translate these three settings to simpleton speak that would be much appreciated.

I have also been wondering about sub placement where should it go I only bought 20ft interconnects.

I also can not play vinyl with the sub on as there is a constant

grumble/rumble sort of like the tone arm vibrations are being amplified

and reproduced as a sort of a bass feedback. Can this be fixed?

I find it difficult to keep girls from sitting on the sub gonna need some new house rules......

[NOSValves]

Ok I have been wrapped up in the nice comfortable blanket sound of SET sound and I have just added my subwoofer which has 2 x 12inch Peerless XLS drivers. The 2 drivers are on top of each other the one firing into the other. The first driver is connected left to left right to right and the other is connected left to right right to left or in phase out of phase if that is the correct term. I have owned the Sub for two years and just bought a Triad Bronze Sub Amp off of ebay 250watts @ 4 ohm. I was a little concerned it wouldn't be powerful enough but it's ok now not so worried now. I am amazed how much information there is 45hz and below holy bass cow batman! I think the Sub has turned part of my brain to choco pudding especially on Bjork album Post track 2. I am trying to tune it so it is not so aggresive but alas the technology is smarter than I. When in operation I find that I am adjusting for each CD which does not seem right.

This sub amp has 4 settings input level which is basically a gain control. Then I have these other two knobs which are Lowpass A and Lowpass B 35hz to 250hz which the manual explains as "Each control operated an independent 12db per octave low pass filter. The two filters are in parallel and their effects are combined to acheive 24db roll-off above the highest common frequency." I also have a Phase Control huh do what now I ain't never had no Phase Control befer what that do? The manual says "The phase control adds up to 180 degrees of phase lag to the subwoofers signal. Use it to improve the subwoofer to main speaker blending, especially where the phase of the main signal may have been inverted." If someone could translate these three settings to simpleton speak that would be much appreciated.

I have also been wondering about sub placement where should it go I only bought 20ft interconnects.

I also can not play vinyl with the sub on as there is a constant grumble/rumble sort of like the tone arm vibrations are being amplified and reproduced as a sort of a bass feedback. Can this be fixed?

I find it difficult to keep girls from sitting on the sub gonna need some new house rules......

That sub is in that wonderful finished wood box? That is awesome. One thing IMHO subs have a way of making information that wasn't really there to start with become what you might believe is on the recording. This is just a non technical theory of mine though.

Craig

[Speedball]

I am amazed how much information there is 45hz and below holy bass cow batman! I think the Sub has turned part of my brain to choco pudding especially on Bjork album Post track 2. I am trying to tune it so it is not so aggresive but alas the technology is smarter than I.

There is tons of information below 45hz....great isn't it.

When in operation I find that I am adjusting for each CD which does not seem right.

I have finally found a happy medium for cd's and dvd's, sometimes it pays to be a "casual listener" or it will drive you nuts always making adjustments. If you are a serious listener I can see how you can tell the difference between discs and even songs.

I also have a Phase Control huh do what now I ain't never had no Phase Control befer what that do?

Just put it where it sounds best they say, every once in a while I will play with it and I still can's hear a difference.

I have also been wondering about sub placement where should it go I only bought 20ft interconnects.

Put it wherever it sounds best. It took 4 different locations in my living room before it sounded just right.

Welcome to the wonderful world of subwoofers....it took me a few months to get used to using it and it is surely worth the effort

[Tom Mobley]

Craig,

That's what I was thinking, that thing is gorgeous. Who makes a sub that looks like that?

[seti]

Thanks for the advice and information guys.

I got the Belles and the Sub for $1800 which I thought was a deal so I drove off fast. He thought they should stay together.

The Sub was designed by a guy that did consulting work for Cary Audio

and the cabinet was built buy a professor at University Of Arkansas @

Fayetteville. He did great work and built it to match the Belles he

even bought the grill cloth from Klipsch. He was selling the speakers

because he was having a house built with a room with in wall horns and

after hearing his sub I wish I could hear that room. The sub is the box

and it is so heavy not fun to move.

"One thing IMHO subs have a way of making information that wasn't really

there to start with become what you might believe is on the recording."

That makes sense and would explain problems with the turntable rumble

feedback noise. Is there a way to correct this or is it just the nature

of the beast?

[NOSValves]

Thanks for the advice and information guys.

I got the Belles and the Sub for $1800 which I thought was a deal so I drove off fast. He thought they should stay together.

The Sub was designed by a guy that did consulting work for Cary Audio and the cabinet was built buy a professor at University Of Arkansas @ Fayetteville. He did great work and built it to match the Belles he even bought the grill cloth from Klipsch. He was selling the speakers because he was having a house built with a room with in wall horns and after hearing his sub I wish I could hear that room. The sub is the box and it is so heavy not fun to move.

"One thing IMHO subs have a way of making information that wasn't really there to start with become what you might believe is on the recording."

That makes sense and would explain problems with the turntable rumble feedback noise. Is there a way to correct this or is it just the nature of the beast?

Sounds to me like you have your sub turned up too high and possibly your turn table has some type of a cartridge alignment problem that is producing a sub sonic frequencies that may be curable with tweaking.

Craig

[Daddy Dee]

Seti,

Wow, what a great setup. The sub cab is beautiful.

When I was using LaScalas as mains, I never really got happy with them until I had a sub to round out the bottom extension. It was always surprising to me on the occasions that I'd end up listening to the sub alone for a few. I'd think, wow, that doesn't really sound like ALOT of material, but the absence of it made me realize I was missing was significant.

Great post. Thanks.

[DrWho]

One thing IMHO subs have a way of making information that wasn't really there to start with become what you might believe is on the recording. This is just a non technical theory of mine though.

And it can easily be debunked by a waterfall or RTA measurement of the source material itself []

As far as setting the phase here's a trick I picked up from Deon (the klipsch subwoofer dude):

Reverse the polarity to your mains (switch the red and black inputs at the speaker terminal) and then play some bass heavy music with the subwoofer playing. Then have someone turn the phase dial on the sub until you hear as little bass as possible. Once you find this point, reverse the polarity on your mains back to normal and now your sub will be very close to perfectly in phase.

As far as your low frequency feedback problem, you will of course want to make sure your TT is working properly. But if everything seems right then some vibration isolation might be the answer...the easiest way to verify this is to put the TT in another room and play some music - if the rumble is still there then there is probably something wrong with the source material or player. And since I don't care for TT's I can't provide any more help in that regard. I do know that many tables implement rumble filters which cut out information below 30Hz because there tends to be a lot of issues with lower frequencies and turntables...perhaps you need to move into the wonderful world of CDs []

[NOSValves]

One thing IMHO subs have a way of making information that wasn't really there to start with become what you might believe is on the recording. This is just a non technical theory of mine though.

And it can easily be debunked by a waterfall or RTA measurement of the source material itself []

[]

I'm not saying there is no information down there but subwoofers have a way of taking the information that is there adding to it and then presenting it in a fat over powering way. I personally think they sound like bunk. Yes I have heard some supposed descent subs before.

Craig

[mustang1]

One gorgeous sub, this professor should market that cabinet. My wife would be more willing to handle my sub in this, as opposed to the RSW-15.

[leok]

That's one nice looking sub. Why can't the girls sit on it? It can probably take the weight (but I don't know).

There's plenty of acoustic info below the 50/40/or 32 Hz cutoff of

various full range speakers, and it is impressive and often important

from a musical perspective to hear/feel it. There is a cost of

extracting that information that some are concerned about, including

me. The crossovers that feed everything above the sub frequencies to

the mains are another handful of active circuits contributing to

distortion and noise. However, when you're listening to something with

important information below what the mains can do, a subwoofer is the

way to go, maybe the only way.

I have a sub available on the SET/RF-7 system. I have several pipe

organ recordings that simply aren't all there without the sub. My

favorite use of the sub, however is with multichannel SACD. In that

case, the frequency separation was done at the time of the recording or

mastering and not in my consumer grade subwoofer crossover.

Anyway, If I don't need them, I keep subwoofer crossover

circuits out of the signal chain, but when the music calls for it, the

sub is worth the tradeoff.

Leo

[sfogg]

"I have also been wondering about sub placement where should it go I only bought 20ft interconnects."

Contrary to what some sales people say placement of a subwoofer is very

important for good performance. You can change how the sub sounds at

your listening position very dramatically with placement.

If that sub is in the middle of your front wall (equal distance to each

side wall) that is usually a bad position for it. The equal distance to

each side wall is going to make those room modes worse. If you want to

keep it on the front wall try directly in the corner or 1/3 of the way

out from the side wall.

Another way that can find a good sub position is to put the sub in your

listening position (liteally on your couch/chair and play music or pink

noise through it. Walk around your room with your head at the

subs normal height (down near the floor) and listen to the music. Find

the locations where the bass sounds to flatest/evenest and mark them

with tape or something. Then move the sub to each of those locations

and listening to how the bass sounds at the listening position.

Dialing in a sub/crossover takes some getting used to. A bad setup will make things sound worse.

With a good sub that is well dialed in you shouldn't be aware that the

sub is there until you turn it off. Then what the sub was adding to the

playback should be much more obvious.

Shawn

[3dzapper]

Seti, Do you completely remove your TT's dust cover when playing LPs? Dustcovers are a great source of LF feedback.

Rick

[DrWho]

I'm not saying there is no information down there but subwoofers have a way of taking the information that is there adding to it and then presenting it in a fat over powering way. I personally think they sound like bunk. Yes I have heard some supposed descent subs before.

I would agree that a poorly implemented subwoofer system would yield those results...but it is something that can be measured and easily accounted for. Afterall, the concept is identical to implementing the transition between any other two drivers (say the basshorn and squaker). The only problem is we don't typically get full control over the crossover between the mains and sub so sometimes we end up with sub-par results, not to mention many people like to crank the volume too high (gotta love F-M curves).

[edwinr]

I agree most people dial in too much gain for their subs. For music, home theatre settings are way too high.

[seti]

The professor did woodwork as his hobby and didn't want it to be a job.

He had tons of DIY furniture I really wanted his Frank Lloyd Wright

reproductions.

I set the pass filters to 65hz and turned the gain way down. This has

helped it sounds much more natural now except on Bjork CDs but I think

she just recorded that way.

Looks like I have a check list now..

1. look into the cartridge alignment

2. take the dustcover off the TT

3. Dr.Who's phase setting trick

"Why can't the girls sit on it?" Because I'm being replaced []

Thanks for the advice and comments[H]

[Colin]

great sub, powerful, good looking, great EQ controls, depending on room, I think center location is OK for music with mid bass...[H]

[seti]

The maker did say it was built to hit 20hz. yikes

[NOSValves]

The professor did woodwork as his hobby and didn't want it to be a job. He had tons of DIY furniture I really wanted his Frank Lloyd Wright reproductions.

I set the pass filters to 65hz and turned the gain way down. This has helped it sounds much more natural now except on Bjork CDs but I think she just recorded that way.

Looks like I have a check list now..

1. look into the cartridge alignment

2. take the dustcover off the TT

3. Dr.Who's phase setting trick

"Why can't the girls sit on it?" Because I'm being replaced []

Thanks for the advice and comments[H]

another trick to try with the dust cover if you like to have it in place. Is to use some type of small bag of sand and lay it on top of the cover while the LP is playing this really does work to reduce the resonance. I use one of the 1/2 pint size bags from a 1/2 pint of Crown Royal looks pretty cool to boot. To really get rid of the resonance of the dust cover you have to make it completely removable from the table. To me this can be a real pain.

Craig

[seti]

I had a couple people ask me if I had the plans for the sub which I

didn't at the time but they were just mailed to me. Here are the scans

of what I received only 2 pages.