steve Posted October 16, 2005 Share Posted October 16, 2005 Well, as i posted last week, what with upgrading all my gear, things sounded like they were "wrong". first not enough bass, then too much bass etc. etc. It was driving me mad. Anyway, I had left town for a day, and when I came back, things had settled down a bit, maybe I needed a break from such intensive listening sessions. Who knows?? At any rate, I checked all drivers, and they seem to be fine. I covered the squawkers with a pillow, and I could hear the tweeters no problem. It certainly didn't seem like there was a lot of info coming out of there, but i remember reading somewhere that there really isn't that much info above the squawker crossover frequency. I also swapped different components, interconnects, and speaker cables out and ruled out the possibility of having something wrong with my new gear. There isn't. It sounds better than anything else I have used. I still think my room is the culprit, as the garage speakers I swapped in for jollies sound better in the garage than in the music room. I still have to toy with the bass traps some more. That said, I still feel like I need "something" for more detail. It seems that I have noticed detail slipping away, ever so slowly over the years. It's probaly my hearing when it comes down to it..but the question is..should i go ahead and get some Al K crossovers and be done with it?? Is there really that much difference?? I have AK2 crossovers, and of course they're 22 years old. I appreciate all opinions, cause I've pretty much decided to stay with the Mac gear, and i don't want to change speakers..I'm pretty loyal to the KHorn! Thanx all Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Speedball Posted October 16, 2005 Share Posted October 16, 2005 I had my new RF-7 and Kg 4.2 crossovers/networks redone and there was an absoloute difference. I was about to get rid of the 4.2's after all these years but after they had a little tune up they are here for good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve Posted October 16, 2005 Author Share Posted October 16, 2005 how would you describe the difference? More detail? Smoother frequency blend? Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted October 16, 2005 Share Posted October 16, 2005 Steve, I have 94 Lascalas in my Livingroom and 198x Lascalas in my shop now granted the systems and rooms are different but the shop system really sounds a good bit better with Dean's Super AA crossovers. The livingroom has AK3 which I would imagine are a bit newer then AK2's. I would say I bet you would here a huge difference upgrading your Xovers. I recommend the Super AA highly. Craig Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve Posted October 16, 2005 Author Share Posted October 16, 2005 Craig I didn't know Dean made xovers for the Khorn..I thought he only did for other Heritage speakers, and Reference series? That's why I mentioned Al Klappenberger's upgrades..how would Dean's/Al's compare? Thanx, Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
audiobliss69 Posted October 16, 2005 Share Posted October 16, 2005 Oooh, someone makes upgrades crossovers for the reference series? I.E. my RF-35? audiobliss69 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted October 16, 2005 Share Posted October 16, 2005 Oooh, someone makes upgrades crossovers for the reference series? I.E. my RF-35? audiobliss69 Dean does it but you have to send the existing crossovers to be done at his place. All current RF series speakers are built on a circuit board so making replacements would require a pretty large investment to have a circuit board designed and produced. Craig Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted October 16, 2005 Share Posted October 16, 2005 Craig I didn't know Dean made xovers for the Khorn..I thought he only did for other Heritage speakers, and Reference series? That's why I mentioned Al Klappenberger's upgrades..how would Dean's/Al's compare? Thanx, Steve Steve, Yup Dean builds then for all Heritage in fact all Lascala, Bells and Khorns use the same crossovers and drivers. I built a set of ALK with his recommended components but it was so long ago I really would have to have them here again to say. So all I can attest to is I love the Super AA's I have now. Craig Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
audiobliss69 Posted October 16, 2005 Share Posted October 16, 2005 I'll try to remember this for when the rest of my system is good enough to bring out the benefits of a better crossover. audiobliss69 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve Posted October 16, 2005 Author Share Posted October 16, 2005 OK thanx Craig I might have to see how busy Dean is these days.. Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted October 16, 2005 Share Posted October 16, 2005 The ALK uses a 3rd order Butterworth alignment on the tweeter. The Super AA is also 3rd order, but more closely approximates a Chebyshev alignment. In simplistic terms, it's actually just a tweaked Type AA tweeter filter. If comparing them head on -- the ALK will have a little bit more tweeter output. The ALK uses a 2nd order squawker filter (bandpass), where the Super AA uses a 1st order. If comparing them head on, the Super AA will have a slightly livelier sounding midrange. Remember, as the order of the filter increases (rolled off faster), the total amount of energy to the driver decreases. As an example: "A driver with a third order high pass filter with a crossover frequency of 5000 Hz driven by the 100 watt amplifier will receive 1.6 watts at 2500 Hz versus 25 watts with a first order filter at full output." My personal experience with this tells me that the bigger the room, or the further away from the speakers you are, or the more power you need to reach the SPL's you enjoy -- the steeper the filter needs to be. I prefer the sound of a lower order squawker filter in my modest sized room and 60 tube watts. Now, this is simply one way of looking at it. For example: If imaging is important to you, than nothing touches Al's ESN. It's extremely difficult to use a cookie-cutter approach in making recommendations. What I said above is what I use because I believe it's the factor that accounts for the greatest impact on the acoustic response. If you were in Indy this year at the get together Friday night -- you heard the Super AA. Trey's LaScalas lit up a very good sized room at an obscene 120dB at 1 meter, and to my complete dismay -- most people actually remained in their seats. The ALK would have done better here - and the ESN's much better. I don't build the ALK or the ESN, those are Al's. I do build Al's Cornwall ALK under license. That aside, I build everything and anything else, and I can build it to any price point a person wants. What I recommend and end up building for someone is determined by what they tell me about their room, their gear, their music, and their listening habits. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3dzapper Posted October 16, 2005 Share Posted October 16, 2005 I can't comment on Dean's networks since I have never heard them (hint). I can, unequivicably, recommend ALKs.. The soundstage obtainable with them is wide and deep (for a horn system) with a dynamic impression and smoothness that can't be found in an A or AA type network. Stock or rebuilt. (That sounds like a beer commercial) Al says his extreme slope networks are even better if pricier. Rick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve Posted October 18, 2005 Author Share Posted October 18, 2005 Dean I thank you for your honest answer. I haven't checked this thread for a couple of days..went back to see if it was updated.. I talked to Al this morning (before I read the above) and ordered the regular upgraded crossovers. From what you described, Dean, it sounds like this is the sound I'm looking for. I may have to do the complete squawker upgrade down the road from what I have read/heard. Dean, didn't you buy that option? Seems like when Al first mentioned it, you were gonna be first in line. Rick, thanx for your recommendation of the ALKs..of course I had ordered them before looking back at this thread..but now I feel better! Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Klappenberger Posted October 18, 2005 Share Posted October 18, 2005 Guys, An oversimplified comparison between Dean's "Super AA" and my Universal network is that the Super AA is "half way" betweem the stock AA and my Universal replacement. Both were designed by me using similar techniques.Al K. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Speedball Posted October 18, 2005 Share Posted October 18, 2005 how would you describe the difference? More detail? Smoother frequency blend? SteveWith the 4.2's the bass tightened up...not so sloppy and boomy and the highs smoothed out. The Rf-7's horn was smoothed out and the midrange was brought forward. Well worth it to me.Audiobliss, My receiver is the cheap Denon 100 watt stereo amp with an old 120 watt Sonographe amp powering the RF-7's. The KG-4.2's are being powered by an old 45 watt Denon stereo reciever. Seems like any changes made to the internals of the speaker can be noticed with "not so high end" gear. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted October 18, 2005 Share Posted October 18, 2005 "... is that the Super AA is "half way" between the stock AA and my Universal replacement. Both were designed by me using similar techniques." It's the good half of the "trip" around the circuit. Steve, you're going to have so much fun when you get those. It's a great experience. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3dzapper Posted October 18, 2005 Share Posted October 18, 2005 You are going to spend days thinking 4&X, no.no 5&2, no.no 4&X . Your muscule's tone will improve and your eysight will be challanged. When you reach Nirvana, all the trouble is forgotten. Rick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted October 18, 2005 Share Posted October 18, 2005 lol 4 0 at low volumes 5 2 at moderate levels 4 X when pushing it to 11 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sunburnwilly Posted October 18, 2005 Share Posted October 18, 2005 If I push mine past 10 it will drive you out of the room !!! " My Amp Is A Little Sensitive ! " [] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3dzapper Posted October 18, 2005 Share Posted October 18, 2005 If I push mine past 10 it will drive you out of the room !!! " My Amp Is A Little Sensitive ! " [] Is it in therapy? Rick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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