Did I miss something?

[Daddy Dee]

LaScalas roll off at 53hz and are probably 3db down by the time they get there.

[DrWho]

so what amp, room, and source are you using that gets you flat

extension down to 20Hz? Heck, show me solid performance at 45Hz with

the lascalas. It just isn't there and I am sorry you have never

experienced true bass.

Btw, success on that test does not in any way dictate that you have golden ears.

[pauln]

LaScalas roll off at 53hz and are probably 3db down by the time they get there.

That measurement was certainly made with a microphone and some kind of equipment, not my ears. Maybe what's important is where one's hearing rolls off. I'm sure this varies among people. In my case I used to reduce the bass on my Heresys slightly when using solid state.

To my ears (remember, these are tested super golden audiophile musician ears) the LaScalas have perfect bass with my SETs.

What most people would judge to be perfect bass for them is just too much bass for me. I also think most people like a little too much high end, too; but this leads into a discussion of the loudness control and the F-M curve -but that argument was in another thread.

Some might mistakenly think I like my music with less bass, but this is misleading - I hear more bass than they. My "less bass" to me sounds like their "full bass" to them. The difference is in the lessor SPL it takes to get me there.

Since I scored a -42dB on the test, I think my statements carry more weight and authority than possibly someone who couldn't objectively discriminate a difference. I guess I mean better ears trumps all.

[Parrot]

Many youngsters are into "fake" bass, bass that is grossly overemphasized (think average newbie with a HT sub for the first time). La Scalas are not for them.

[Marvel]

This is reminding me of the thread about the Heyser testing on time

delay. What you measure and what you hear are two separate things.

I have heard some great acoustic bass on a Fathead Newman CD, played on

some LaScalas that was just beautiful. Without a sub, and on SS. Only

using a couple of watts as I recall too.

I would be quite happy with a pair of LS.

Bruce

[bkrop]

My Klipsch papers that I got with my speakers (KG 4s) state that the

frequency response of the La Scallas EXCEEDS the response present on

LPs!

[Daddy Dee]

LaScalas roll off at 53hz and are probably 3db down by the time they get there.

That

measurement was certainly made with a microphone and some kind of

equipment, not my ears. Maybe what's important is where one's hearing

rolls off. I'm sure this varies among people. In my case I used to

reduce the bass on my Heresys slightly when using solid state.

To my ears (remember, these are tested super golden audiophile musician ears) the LaScalas have perfect bass with my SETs.

What

most people would judge to be perfect bass for them is just too much

bass for me. I also think most people like a little too much high end,

too; but this leads into a discussion of the loudness control and the

F-M curve -but that argument was in another thread.

Some might

mistakenly think I like my music with less bass, but this is misleading

- I hear more bass than they. My "less bass" to me sounds like their

"full bass" to them. The difference is in the lessor SPL it takes to

get me there.

Since I scored a -42dB on the test, I think my

statements carry more weight and authority than possibly someone who

couldn't objectively discriminate a difference. I guess I mean better

ears trumps all.

Paul,

I'm happy that you like the sound of your LaScalas. However, you

don't seem to be happy that I found them lacking in bass

extension. If you don't agree with my opinion, it's just my

opinion. IMO Klipshorns do alot better job on bass than LaScala.

If I could extrapolate from your statement about just right quality of

LaScala bass, that it would follow that Klipschorns would have too much

bass?

The measurement of 53hz is the published Klipsch spec on LaScala performance.

Your own ears have to be the final authority of the sound you like. You

like LaScalas. They are fine speakers, I agree. More power to you.

[NOSValves]

LaScalas roll off at 53hz and are probably 3db down by the time they get there.

Daddy,

The 53hz roll off that your quoting is a Lascala without any placement benefit. Take a Khorn and put it in the center of the chamber at klipsch and see what it does! The fricken thing would be worse then a Lascala those specs mean nothing in the real world.

Craig

[bkrop]

"while not as dramatic as the Klipschorn the frequency response of the LaScalla's exceeds almost all LPs"

This from the speaker brochure I recieved in the mid 80s along with my

speakers (KG 4s) that listed the home speaker line at the time.

[audiobliss69]

Craig - So what would the 'real-world' low-frequency response of a LaScala be with the benefits of placement?

[Daddy Dee]

Craig,

I appreciate the information you note. I'm not a technical type.

The point I am trying to make.... I think Khorns sound better than LaScalas.

That's all.

[DrWho]

The 53hz roll off that your quoting is a

Lascala without any placement benefit. Take a Khorn and put it in the

center of the chamber at klipsch and see what it does! The fricken

thing would be worse then a Lascala those specs mean nothing in the

real world.

Let's see some proof

(it would be pretty crappy marketing by klipsch to post the response of

the lascala outside of a corner....especially considering they measure

every other speaker that way).

Btw, your analogy sucks considering the corner of the room is part of the khorn

[Duke Spinner]

SET Guys ....

don't know what Real Bass is anyways .......

Golden Ears ....or ....Not ........[]

now ....hook up that K-2, and we can experience .....Bass

[edwinr]

Although I feel 95% of the music doesn't go that low anyway.

Then you are arguing that 95% of music doesn't have any kick drums, low toms, pianos, organs, keyboards, timpany, acoustic bass, or electric bass guitars...

A quality subwoofer will fix that.

But most music will sound just fine on La Scalas. They feature a very tight low end and the extension is quite adequate for most music. In many rooms where there are problems with reproducing very low frequencies, I can see the La Scala providing the perfect solution.

As I see it, loudspeakers that feature very ample low extension can be difficult to place. Some rooms seem to muddy the bass - especially when the lower frequencies kick in. With the Klipschorn, you can't dial the bass out, or easily adjust for anomalies. The beauty of adding a subwoofer to the La Scala, is that the bass extension can then be dialled in or out as required. Additionally you can easily move the subwoofer to compensate for other room related problems.

But the La Scala, as it is, is a fine loudspeaker. I notice that, like the Klipschorn, the further you are away from the speaker, the more things just seem to click into place. The sound becomes one, more cohesive, and the speakers just disappear in the room. Placing the La Scala in the corner is okay, but you tend to lose that vey tight bottom end. I prefer listening to the La Scala out from the corners, but close to the back walls.

The latest La Scala (1 not the 2) seems to prefer a fair bit of power. I'm not too sure whether a low powered SET amplifier would be sufficient in a room the size of mine. I briefly entertained the thought, but I don't think it'll work. I tried a 12 watt per channel S/S amp I built, but it lacked the drive in the bottom end. The Jolida SJ 202a integrated tube I bought a couple of years ago just sucks. The Atoll Electronique IN50 50 watt p/c integrated seems to work just fine. Another amp I'll try soon is the Audio Note Soro SE integrated tube. It's rated around 18 watts per channel with a built in phono stage. This might be enough power - we'll soon see.

[3dzapper]

Who, Would you think a $45k/pair speaker goes flat from 20 to 20? It is rated buy the maker at"20 to 21KHz +0/-3db".

This speaker got rave reviews. Why?

Rick

[NOSValves]

DrWho,

You ever been to the klipsch facility in Indy?? I have and they measure all speakers in or near the center of there sound chamber except the Khorn . This sound chamber is custom built with a rotating corner it is swung around to expose a naked corner without all the pointed sound deadening material for testing just the Khorn(I can't seem to think of the name for the stuff). All other speakers are tested near the center of the chamber.. I agree that testing the Khorn out of the corner wouldn't be fair to the Khorn but by the same token if your going to compare these graphs and specs, things are twisted in favor of the Khorn. Trust me Lascala speakers placed properly using the corner go way lower then 53hz that is just plan bullsh!t and again I'm talking in a real world situation not placing the speaker in the middle of my room. All speaker benefit from corner loading Paul Klipsch himself hammered that home his entire career. But Klipsch has to compete and use the industry standards measuring techniques for there standard speakers that are not dependent 100% on the corner as part of there construction.

Craig

[edwinr]

Hi Craig.

You make a good point. There are those that pore over specs and slam products because their stated specs don't match other manufacturers. I reckon some manufacturers are just more honest than others.

Anyway, the proof of the pudding is in the eating. And what I'm eating tastes pretty good to me. Subjectively, the bass extension of the La Scala does seems to go much lower than the stated low frequency cutoff point.

Doc Who, despite what you appear to be saying, you cannot remove the room from the equation. You seem to be ridiculing La Scala owners who blame room/speaker interaction problems for those people (like yourself and Tom B.) who don't like the sound of La Scalas. Then you regurgitate meaningless technocrap to justify your comments. Or was that in another related thread?

[DrWho]

woh, I'm not riduling lascala owners....they just like to go around

proclaiming ultimate bass response when it's just not there. If your

source material doesn't require it then that's fine, but it's not

sufficient for everyone - I would be curious to find out what you're

listening to though.

And yes I have been to the klipsch facility in Indy and spent a great

deal of time talking to all the engineers there. It is most certainly

not deceptive marketing to post frequency response specs when the

speaker is put in the corner. In fact, if you built a speaker that

measured flat from 20Hz on up in the anechoic chamber, then it would

have way too much bass in a normal room! They spend a lot of time there

tweaking the off-axis sound of the speakers to make them more room

friendly.

The bass horn on the lascala has an Fc of 70Hz...below that the bass

bin is essentially acting like a 15" driver in a sealed cabinet. Does

the lascala use the K-33? If so it would be really easy to predict its

response using the T/S parameters (and I just happen to have the K-33

on file). I seem to recall djk mentioning that the F3 moves down to

just above 44Hz in the corner when you implemented the ported lascala

mod.....certainly wouldn't be the first time I've seen a port extend

the F3 by 10Hz....

Anyways, show me verifiable data that shows otherwise. We don't need

this random mumbo jumbo about the klipsch facility (unless a klipsch

employee wants to chime in and let us know how the lascala was actually

measured).

[pauln]

My Klipsch papers that I got with my speakers (KG 4s) state that the frequency response of the La Scallas EXCEEDS the response present on LPs!

I'm so glad you mentioned that - explains a lot and its good to know 'cause I only listen to music on LPs.

Maybe I need a new way to state it... "LaScalas: All the bass that's fit to hear!"

[3dzapper]

"Anyways, show me verifiable data that shows otherwise. We don't need this random mumbo jumbo about the klipsch facility (unless a klipsch employee wants to chime in and let us know how the lascala was actually measured)."

Within the past few weeks Trey of one of the other Klipsch employees confirmed Craig's statement. Only the Khorn is officially tested in the revolving corner. All others are free field anechoic at 1 meter.

That said, the LaScala does not go as low as the Khorn or many oyher speakers. It makes up for the lack of the bottom audible octave with it's speedy, very low distortion bass.

IMO adding a subwoofer to Khorns, Belles or, by extention, LaScalas adds little while detractimg much by "smearing" the bass, slowing it and the loss of bass localization. YMMV depending on type of music,ie: hiphop. I experimented with that again last evening with the Khorns. I set the SW-15 at 40HZ cut-off after aligning the phase for maximum output then setting the level with one ear toward the sub the other kinda in the horn. A definate loss of bass clarity could be heard from my listening position. I feel that this is due to the large "time smear". The other day, I was listening to the Belle system with the sub. On a clean bass drum hit (Take Five) the Bells would slap and boom with a very noticable delayed boom from the sub located away from and in the opposite channel of the original sound. Quite disconcerting.

Rick

Edit: Max reminded me (below) of something. The sub sounded very good and natural with my Heresys and Cornwalls flesging out the bottom.