RF-7s versus Denon receiver

[lo123]

Went out looking at subs last night and found RF-7s new for $750

on sale, which seems like a good deal. Currently have surround

components matched to my RF-35s. Have a two year old Denon 6

channel receiver, model 1605?? 1805??, I think it's 70-90 watts per

channel. Do the RF-7s need a tube amp to get good response?

I've read posts regarding big impedance changes across frequency and

some implied limitations on using solid state amps. Anyone have

experience with these speakers with solid state similar to mine?

[AnalOg]

RF7's NEW for $750.00, now thats a deal.

Tom

[Duke Spinner]

You .....

didn't ...BUY them ....???

thats below dealer cost ...

[Duke Spinner]

that's not a speaker for a tube amp ....[]

[Zen Traveler]

I am a big Denon/Klipsch Fan. I have 3 HT's with that combination, after trying others. If you can find a Denon AVR 3805 on sale (I think it may just now be labeled "discontinued") that would be a good receiver. If you can find a used AVR-3803, 4802R or 5803 that would be a better bang for your buck, IMO.

I am not familiar with the AVR 1805 but may work just fine. I would try it and see.[]

[tigerwoodKhorns]

Lets clarify. Is it $750 for a pair of $750 each?

$750 for a pair is an awesome deal.

I do not own RF7's but I hear that they like a lot of power (about 200 wpc - and yes, I realize that they are very efficient).

Chris

[lo123]

Price is each. Comes out to 25% off retail if I remember

correctly. My main issue is that I'd have to sell entire RF-35,

RC-35, RS-35 system. Wonder if wife would notice the larger

speakers if RF-35s just sort of disappeared...... very tempting!

Sale ends Wednesday, any more inputs on amp power (solid state)? My Denon is an 1804.

[MrMcGoo]

Rf-7s will run ok on your receiver as long as they are set as small. Real performance starts at 200 wpc on most solid state separate amps.

Receivers have inadequate power supplies and generally have a single pair of MOSFETs per channel. A separate amp of better quality would have 5 to 8 pairs of MOSFETs (or bipolars.) Separate amps can handle the 2.8 ohm minimum and maintain frequency response.

Bass on a receiver running RF-7s will be boomy and undefined. Big transients will clip a receiver and some separate amps. The current requirements to run the 2.8 ohm minimum are best met with a serious amp.

Folks that disregard this recommendation say that their terrific, high-dollar 50 wpc amp could not be at fault for the terrible sound with such high sensitivity speakers. Then they listen to a real amp and say that they had no idea the speakers could sound so good.

Long story short, don't get the RF-7s unless you are prepared to get an amp that gets the job done. It might be a 60 watt tube amp with 4 ohm taps or a good 200 wpc amp or a 150 wpc that puts out 600 wpc into 2 ohms. Bottom line is that it must drive low impedances and have adequate headroom for your listening habits maximum requirements. Your Denon cannot do it right.

Bill

[Duke Spinner]

EACH ......????

Whaaaa ...like...yer only gonna buy One ..???.........what..?? ...Mono makin' a comeback ...??

Saaaayy ... why not buy just 1 ....

leave 'em with a stray they'll have to sell cheap at some point ....[]

[Zen Traveler]

Rf-7s will run ok on your receiver as long as they are set as small. Real performance starts at 200 wpc on most solid state separate amps...

Bass on a receiver running RF-7s will be boomy and undefined. Big transients will clip a receiver and some separate amps. The current requirements to run the 2.8 ohm minimum are best met with a serious amp.

Folks that disregard this recommendation say that their terrific, high-dollar 50 wpc amp could not be at fault for the terrible sound with such high sensitivity speakers. Then they listen to a real amp and say that they had no idea the speakers could sound so good.

Long story short, don't get the RF-7s unless you are prepared to get an amp that gets the job done. It might be a 60 watt tube amp with 4 ohm taps or a good 200 wpc amp or a 150 wpc that puts out 600 wpc into 2 ohms. Bottom line is that it must drive low impedances and have adequate headroom for your listening habits maximum requirements. Your Denon cannot do it right.

Bill

I disagree. I can't argue that having more power wouldn't be benificial for your RF-7's but saying "Long story short, don't get the RF-7s unless you are prepared to get an amp that gets the job done," negates the fact that alot of us love our Home Theaters and are MORE than satisfied with our Denon AVR receivers. I run my speakers as Large (after trying numerous settings) and my bass is NOT boomy or undefined.

He is also talking about getting the RSW 12 subwoofer and from experience I would bet he would be ecstatic with what he is contemplating.

MrMcgoo evidently has the golden ear and may not be satisfied with anything short of his perception of perfect, but some of us appreciate what we have as well, and don't feel the need to upgrade after doing our own research.[]

{edit: I also can't comment on his current Denon, not having heard it. The AVR's I recommended would fit his needs, IMHO}

[MrMcGoo]

Apparently some folks have not read the complaint threads for the RF-7s. There is a pattern. Folks that under power the RF-7s are frequently unhappy.

One fellow had a Denon integrated amp that is well built, but lacked the ability to handle the lower impedances of the RF-7s. He put a Carver Pro ZR1600 on the RF-7s and was much happier.

Why buy speakers that will not perform well with the proposed equipment? It's like buying a Porche and using poor tires.

A good tube amp like VRDs with 4 ohm taps will get the job done as will the 200 wps per channel solid state amp that Klipsch tech support recommends.

Bill

[Petrol]

...A good tube amp like VRDs with 4 ohm taps will get the job done as will the 200 wps per channel solid state amp that Klipsch tech support recommends.

Bill

which one do they recommend?

[Zen Traveler]

Apparently some folks have not read the complaint threads for the RF-7s. There is a pattern. Folks that under power the RF-7s are frequently unhappy.

One fellow had a Denon integrated amp that is well built, but lacked the ability to handle the lower impedances of the RF-7s. He put a Carver Pro ZR1600 on the RF-7s and was much happier.

Why buy speakers that will not perform well with the proposed equipment? It's like buying a Porche and using poor tires.

A good tube amp like VRDs with 4 ohm taps will get the job done as will the 200 wps per channel solid state amp that Klipsch tech support recommends.

Bill

And apparently some folks haven't read the totality of the threads that support my position that you can have the Denon's I mentioned and be very happy with your purchase. Nothing to say he can't upgrade later and appreciate greater benefit from his RF-7's.

To use your analogy you wouldn't tell the person not to buy the Porsche unless he is willing to spend more on tires than the Porsche cost. My RF-7's perform well with my Denon AVR Receiver and I am EXTREMELY happy with the results. []

[jacksonbart]

Apparently some folks have not read the complaint threads for the RF-7s. There is a pattern. Folks that under power the RF-7s are frequently unhappy.

One fellow had a Denon integrated amp that is well built, but lacked the ability to handle the lower impedances of the RF-7s. He put a Carver Pro ZR1600 on the RF-7s and was much happier.

Why buy speakers that will not perform well with the proposed equipment? It's like buying a Porche and using poor tires.

A good tube amp like VRDs with 4 ohm taps will get the job done as will the 200 wps per channel solid state amp that Klipsch tech support recommends.

Bill

And apparently some folks haven't read the totality of the threads that support my position that you can have the Denon's I mentioned and be very happy with your purchase. Nothing to say he can't upgrade later and appreciate greater benefit from his RF-7's.

To use your analogy you wouldn't tell the person not to buy the Porsche unless he is willing to spend more on tires than the Porsche cost. My RF-7's perform well with my Denon AVR Receiver and I am EXTREMELY happy with the results. []

Very true/good point and I believe he is also speaking of minn_male42

[Zen Traveler]

Very true/good point and I believe he is also speaking of minn_male42

You haven't ditched the 5803 have you? [] Were you not satisfied with your results?

[BobbyT]

You don't buy a Porsche just because you can afford the car payments. You also have insurance and upkeep. Do you buy a Porsche and not put 91 oct gas and synthetic oil in it. When the brakes wear do you run to autozone for replacement parts or Brembo.

Yes you can run RF7s with a low to mid level receiver(brand does not matter). But they won't truely perform without good quality amplification.

I'm not saying don't get the RF7s. I'm saying get the RF7s but plan on upgrading other equipment.

[Zen Traveler]

You don't buy a Porsche just because you can afford the car payments. You also have insurance and upkeep. Do you buy a Porsche and not put 91 oct gas and synthetic oil in it. When the brakes wear do you run to autozone for replacement parts or Brembo. Yes you can run RF7s with a low to mid level receiver(brand does not matter). But they won't truely perform without good quality amplification. I'm not saying don't get the RF7s. I'm saying get the RF7s but plan on upgrading other equipment.

lo123 has come to the right place to get a smattering of opinions. [] I think upkeep and maintenance issues with cars are different from individual upgrade preferences in Home Theater components. We are at the point of saying the same thing--Get the RF-7's. []

[Speedball]

....for sure, just get them and if you don't ever upgrade the amp you will be happy and if you do, you will be happier.

[dkp]

When I first purchased my RF-7s I had them powered by a Yamaha 5560 receiver at 75 wpc. I then upgraded to a B&K AVR 307 receiver that puts out 125 wpc. I am now running them from a B&K Ref 200.2 amplifier. At each and every upgrade the sound of the RF-7s changed dramatically. The bass became more pronounced and the highs were not as in-your-face at high volumes. As a matter of fact, the change in the overall sound of the bass was so pronounced that I often have to verify that my sub is not playing. I had seen that very same comment made by others on the forum but remained skeptical until I experienced it for myself.

I am not saying that you cannot be happy with a pair of RF-7s powered by a receiver, because I was, especially with the 307. However, more often than not a receiver will simply not do what a separate amplifier will. There are those who do their own research and arrive at the conclusion that Bose makes the best sounding speaker on the market. However, that statement is a fallacy as Bose speakers do not reproduce source material in at various frequencies. Yes, they may sound good to you, but they just can't do what other speakers can. If you are happy with your RF-7s and a receiver then by all means enjoy your system. My point is that, in my experience, most receivers will not take the RF-7s to their capacity.

David

[MrMcGoo]

The fellow that put the ZR1600 on his RF-7s was JPM; minn_male has the ZR1000.

The car analogy is closer to buying a Vette and the use of a 4 cylinder engine. The 4 cylinder will get you there, but it is a different experience with a big V-8.

The 2.8 ohm minimum impedance requires that the amp produce over three times the current or the voltage will drop per Ohm's law. A drop in voltage will give poor frequency response. Bass uses the most power and will be hardest hit, but higher frequencies will take on an edge that is not pleasant.

Klipsch puts a 650 watt amp in the RSW-15 due to the requirements in the bass frequencies. The amp is not wasted power.

Any quality brand amp that can handle 2 ohms will do nicely on RF-7s, provided it has the required headroom for the listening preferences of the owner. QSC,Crown, Aragon (See eBay Klipsch store) B&K, Sunfire and Parasound all make suitable amps. The pro gear does not need to set you back much money, but may have a fan noise issue.

When is the last time that you noticed a receiver manufacturer saying that loads below 6 ohms are ok on a receiver? In addition to poor sound, receivers may shut down under stress of an action movie and may overheat as well. UL only certified most receivers for true 8 ohm loads or 6 ohms, if you reduce the rail voltage by flipping the switch.

Bill