Use mat on acrylic TT platter???

[BillH2121]

Uh - oh, maybe I should have done a search before jumping in and ordering the None-felt. Oh well - its only money - its not like I'm some coke addict that constantly throws money away trying to get a bigger rush. WAIT A MINUTE - its exactly like being a coke addict! I'll give the donut a try and see what I think - its one of the lesser investments I've made lately and won't hurt too much if it doesn't work out.

[Parrot]

Actually, I tend to not like the take of CLAMPS in general, even high quality ones.

This almost reads as if you can distinguish a sonic difference between

clamps. You're not claiming that, I hope? I have grave doubts that you

could tell *without looking* whether any clamp was being used or not.

Obviously when you're talking about $500 clamps on the most expensive

of record players, about 95% of that is profit. But if someone is

paying $10,000 or whatever for a record player, he's not going to worry

about dropping another $500.

I remember one of these threads from years ago in which you talked some

people into trying some special audiophile mat, and then were

confounded when at least one of these guys who tested it out couldn't

hear any difference at all. Then you pretty much dropped the subject,

as I recall.

[garymd]

Before I bought the clamp for my table, heavier LPs would "spin out" when I turned the motor on. I then had to decide whether to buy a clamp or a mat. The clamp certainly helped take the warp out of records while the sorbothane mat took chunks off my labels. I opted for the clamp. I'm not sure I could tell the sonic differences between clamps but the heavy Basis clamp does a much better job flattening records then some of the other options.

[Parrot]

Mobile deserves credit for going against the audiophile grain regarding

clamps. The only time I've seen a turntable without a clamp in the last

several years is in the NOS Valves room. Even then the clamp was nearby

just in case, I guess, someone freaked out.

[mobile homeless]

Well, Parrot, I hate to provide more fodder but there are indeed differences in clamps and how they perform. There are a ton of clamps out there, some better than others, some overpriced, some worthless, some with different principles.

Try the little "PIG CLAMP" and compare it to even the middle of the road VPI clamp and if you dont hear the difference, consider yourself as lucky as a Parrot with a cage door left ajar. Some clamps screw down on the spindle, other just use friction. Some use their own weight. Some clamps take up the entire label area, some only a portion. Simply put, some have different properties relating to how they work, in effectiveness as well.

MY statement was I dont particularly love clamps no matter what variety.

As for the turntable mat, if you have not heard the difference between a big sorbathane mat and a piece of felt, this with all the adjustments made to make up for the height difference, then it's time to feel lucky yet again, and fly for the door ajar.

Although it might seem like "hocus-pocus" to my feathered friend, what a record SITS on affects the sound. Place a record on a metal platter with mat vs an acrylic platter with mat. Add in the different platter weights and thickness choices along with the composition and you have even more considerations. Hear no difference? More luck and no need for ducats for something that doesnt matter.

This isnt "magic" or "audiophile mumbo jumbo" but just the physical properties and how they interact with one another. Of course, you can plop down in a 68 Ford Galaxy 500 and groove to the big AM radio, smiling like a Silverback Ape on Whiskey, it's all pretty much relative.

kh

[Parrot]

Then I guess it's fair to say you're admitting that you could not tell

a sonic difference between a 1) Fancy clamp 2) Run of the mill clamp

and 3) No clamp? Sure, anyone with eyesight can *see* the difference.

But fine people, you included no doubt, are highly susceptible to mind

games. You *see* the difference so you talk yourself into *hearing* a

difference. If there actually is a benefit to clamps, and I have read

the theory, then it isn't going to make any difference whether a space

age exotic metal is hand-milled by monks in Tibet or whether they are

stamped out like hockey pucks. If it clamps the record down, it has

completed its function.

Apropos to your cage comments: "Are birds free from the chains of the skyway?" - Bob Dylan

[RAPTORMAN]

I have tried using a mat on my SuperScout Master for about 20 records--I did not hear any difference in sonics, of course I had to adjust the VTA and VTF on it. With the clamp and the Pheriperal ring I do notice a difference. Changing the cartridge from an expensive one to a cheaper one; there was a big difference. The cheaper one sounds better.

[maxg]

Christ there is a lot going on in this thread now - we've moved from mats to clamps via vacuums and outer rings.

OK - in no particular order:

1. Paul - not again. Up to your entry into this thread everyone was merely expressing their opinion and adding it to those already up there - we had managed to avoid the calling out phase where someone demands proof of another's assessment. Now if you have an opinion on any of the above - go for it - but let others describe for themselves what they have observed.

2. Clamps. Yes - there can be differences in sonics using no clamp, a given type of clamp or another type of clamp IME. When I bought my current table it came with a very clever plastic clamp that weights nothing - but grips the spindle and so can be used to force the vinyl into good contact with whatever you have underneath it. When I later bought the outer ring the guys gave me the older style metal clamp to try in place of the plastic one. I played with both and with neither and came to the conclusion that I prefered the metal clamp option over the others. Not a night and day difference - possibly caused by the additional real mass of the clamp - or something else entirely - but there you have it - my 2c.

Come to think of it - I never tried the plastic one with the outer ring in place - should do that at some point.

3. Any and all results obtained here are going to be different - if in nothing else - between high mass and sprung tables. Putting a heavy clamp on a sprung table could be about the worst thing you could do - it needs experimenting with. On the other hand it is unlikely to be a dramatic problem on a high mass design.

4. Suction / vacuum clamps. I do not know what Kelly has heard so I cannot comment. I have heard a Sota TT very recently with this feature and was VERY impressed with it indeed. What I cannot tell is if the sound is better because of the vacuum or it is simply a very good table - I would need more time with it to assess.

What I can say is that one of the most dramatic differences I ever made to my own TT was the addition of the outer ring - which achieves much the same effect - in a lower tech kind of way. This is a night and day difference IMHO. The reasons are actually nothing to do with bonding the vinyl to the platter and everything to do with flattening it. Even then - it is not flattening it in the hope of overcoming the distortion inherent in warped vinyl - it is all about eliminating vertical movement in the arm and cartridge. We are talking about sonic differences you would simply not believe if you have not heard it here.

Basically - to pad this with a little theory; When your arm and cartridge are moving in the vertical plane the overhang is changing slightly, as is the tracking weight (not mass). In order to control this movement, most arms have a fairly complex damped system to keep the arm in true and a lot will depend on the quality of the cantilever on the cartridge and the match of its compliance to your arm's mass, the tracking weight chosen and so on. It is also observable on most arms that the more the arm rises and falls the more likely it is that the needle will unseat from the groove. Aside from all the forces acting on the needle itself there is an additional problem with the anti-skate system which, unless the arm is very well designed, is not able to cope with movement in this second plane.

The use of either an outer ring or vacuum system serves to eliminate, as far as possible, all vertical movement. This not only stops these variations of weights and loadings as mentioned above but, it also effectively isolates the arm from both its own system for vertical adjustment AND from the vaguaries of the cantilever and its effects.

Unsurprisingly to me - this makes a big difference in the sound. I wait with baited breath for Paul's response.

Oh - and yes I can hear the difference blind - and in another room (Tony was here and put a record on whilst I was helping my daughter in the bathroom - playback started and I yelled out for him to put the ring on before playing. He appeared shocked at the door and asked how I knew....[6])

[Timmikid]

Ok, which Clearaudio tables support the outer ring? If you know by heart, it must be midnight in Greece as well! What about the ambient, isn't she a beauty?

[Parrot]

I am not going to be drawn into a ridiculous argument about whether

someone can hear a difference or not between clamps. It's obvious to me

that the notion is absurd and the burden is on the person claiming to

be able to hear the difference, not on me to disprove a negative.

If we get into the theoretical, every single thing that changes in a room changes the sound. This would include:

1) If you change the position of a pillow on your couch.

2) If you have all your book spines aligned straight on your bookcase.

3) If your shoelaces are tied or dangling.

4) If you have a can of beer next to your chair, or a sixpack.

Et cetera et cetera.

All of these differences absolutely change the physics of the

soundwaves in your room. And every one of them is below the ability for

anyone to distinguish the difference. But every one of them is

sufficient for a golden-eared audiophile to *claim* he hears the

difference.

[thebes]

Pretty interesting stuff here gentlemen, and since I have a Rega P3

with a glass platter and am relatively new to vinyl, I'll ask some

questions rather than provide an observation.

First up, Mobile, why for is glass bad? Seriously, did Rega do

this just as a marketing ploy. They like the table they design and they

sure sell a lot of them, but was this some passing stereo fancy or is

there some sort of science or engineering behind it?

Max, sorry but what is this outer ring stuff, is it something I can

build or buy at reasonable price? Is like one of those hollow

frisbees that came along after the orignal frisbees?

Everybody, if I need to cover my glass what's a good cheap mat to put on it?

Paul, you've obviously got a take on this issue but are you suggesting

it's not an issue? I know you listen to a lot of classical but

sorry I don't know if you are into vinyl. If you do have a tt,

what's your approach to getting the best out of it (cartridge aside,

boy those puppies can be pricy)? I mean do you use a clamp, mat,

nothing? I know there are many other variables besides the

minutea of and/or tweaks we are talking about here but I think

it's a worthy topic. I meaa a guy whose primary consideration in

buying a house is how the main room will deliver music is not above

addressing smaller concerns. Inquiring minds want to know, share

your secrets, quit holding out, I need many gurus on the path to musica

nirvanna.

[Parrot]

I mean a guy whose primary consideration in

buying a house is how the main room will deliver music is not above

addressing smaller concerns.

[] The sound of the listening room is about as important as it gets.

The greatest symphony orchestra in the world, if it plays in a hall

with bad acoustics, is going to sound like a potentially great

orchestra held back by bad architects.

The sound of one record clamp to another is trivial in the extreme in comparison.

To carry forward the comparison, changing the record clamp would make

about as much difference in a home listening environment as if one of

the second violinists in an orchestra used a different brand of rosin

on her bow one night.

I have a relatively simple turntable in comparison to some of the

jaw-droppers that have been pictured in this forum: The Music Hall

MMF-5. I got an excellent price on it of $400 new some years back. It

has a glass platter, a felt mat, and a threaded clamp, all standard. I

usually use the clamp just because it's fun. Sometimes I don't. But

either way I have never noticed any difference.

http://www.lpgear.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=LG&Product_Code=MMF50&Category_Code=TURN

You might find some of this info interesting:

http://www.theanalogdept.com/platter_mats.htm

I am not endorsing any of it, just passing it on.

[mobile homeless]

First up, Mobile, why for is glass bad? Seriously, did Rega do this just as a marketing ploy. They like the table they design and they sure sell a lot of them, but was this some passing stereo fancy or is there some sort of science or engineering behind it?

Would you mind telling me where I suggested in any place in this entire thread that the Rega glass platter was bad (at least in this thread...heh)? RE-read the posts and my point in bringing up the Rega Planar 3 again to Cal. Use the stock felt mat with it. As I said in about three different posts, the felt is not bad at all and seems to be very neutral for a glass platter.

As for Paul not hearing a difference betwen clamp or no clamp on a glass platter with felt mat, it's not something I need to worry about. My 78 year old mother cant tell the difference between Michelin XZX and Dunlop SP-8000 tires on her car either. I dont bother wasting time trying to explain the difference any more nor think she would notice once it WAS pointed out. It's not even in her realm of consciousness. This is a bit of the way I think of Paul Parrot except Paul probably isnt as good a tennis player as my mom.

kh

[NOSValves]

Imagine I almost missed this thread! This is great stuff.

[fini]

Too bad we can't just send our turntables (and extensive LP collections) to Jupiter or Neptune. Gravity there would suck down the most peskily (now THERE's a great new word) warped record.

Aw, then we'd argue about the best interconnects. Strike it.

[garymd]

I have a relatively simple turntable in comparison to some of the jaw-droppers that have been pictured in this forum: The Music Hall MMF-5. I got an excellent price on it of $400 new some years back. It has a glass platter, a felt mat, and a threaded clamp, all standard. I usually use the clamp just because it's fun. Sometimes I don't. But either way I have never noticed any difference.

There you have it.

[maxg]

"Max, sorry but what is this outer ring stuff, is it something I can build or buy at reasonable price? Is like one of those hollow frisbees that came along after the orignal frisbees"

OK first off you do not really need to worry about the outer ring for your table. This device is really only for high mass tables and platters. The ring itself is about one and a half kilos on its own and the bearings on your table would have trouble supporting it - not to mention the additional stresses on the motor if you do not start the thing spinning by hand first.

Further, for the cost of the ring you would be better off upgrading the table itself. Selling yours and buying something a little higher up the range would work out at about the same price as buying the ring (a VPI Scout for example).

As for the glass platter on the Rega I think it is excellent for its money and actually implemented it on my old Project Table . It does need something to stop it ringing - on my project I actually used a rubber ring between the glass and the sub-platter and this worked extremely well. On the Rega I am not sure you need that as I would guess the subplatter is designed to to that job.

As for what difference all this makes - that is entirely up to the owner. Paul is correct in that the listening room is potentially more important than any single component in the equipment chain. As a general rule of thumb in trying to access relative importance I use the following:

Room - 1/3rd

System - 1/3rd

Source - 1/3rd*

* - includes both media and playback equipment.

Of course the converse is also true. In Paul's case I would be happy to assume his speaker / room setup is excellent - possibly including his amps / pre-amps and so on. what is obvious to me, however, is that he has an imbalance in the quality of his vinyl source in comparison to this.

Now it might be that Paul doesn't listen to much vinyl (I seem to remember he is heavily into SACD) and so it is less important, but, if he were to go more heavily into vinyl listening then the most productive area for him to invest in would be a new table - with whatever extras he chose to install or not.

I should also point out that there is nothing wrong inherently with Paul's TT - it is a fine piece of equipment for its money (new - at the price he paid it really is an excellent deal). I think Gary's throw away comment could be interpreted as condescending to the table but I would hope that is not the case.

For me the "there you have it" comment is applicable simply because of the lack of description of table. No mention of the cartridge, the phono stage and a direct reference to the table being in standard form. This is not a vinyl lover talking. My original table was a Project RPM 4 - but by the end it was far from standard and any description I would have given of it would have been complete. I am a vinyl lover - talking as ever!!

Of course everyone's system has a weak point somewhere - for me it is almost certainly the speakers - room being excellent (out of luck rather than judgement) and source being about as good as I could get without totally bankrupting myself.

[fini]

I slept on it (and wrinkled it, somewhat), and now I believe Saturn would be the best planet for playing records, because of the ring.

[Allan Songer]

ESPECIALLY Sun Ra records!!

[maxg]

Fini - nice one but you are talking out of Uranus!!

Everyone knows when it comes to vinyl - Mercury is best.