Current state of SACD

[Parrot]

Another interesting thing about the multichannel aspects: Sony was

*not* for multichannel originally. They reasoned that Tokyo apartments

were too small for having a bunch of speakers around. But Sony

acquiesced to requests by a couple recording engineers who were

enthusiastic about multichannel, and to Philips, who were also for it.

But the important thing to me is that multichannel was not

consumer-driven or artist-driven, but advocated by literally just a few

engineers. Now of course people don't always know what they want until

they have the option, but I think this origin largely accounts for the

lack of the general public caring about multichannel audio (without

video): they had never asked for it in the first place. I am surprised

that hardly any pop artists have done anything creative with

multichannel for new recordings. I'd be hard pressed to think of more

than a couple.

[maxg]

"Max, SACD hasn't been hacked because nobody can hack it. The challenge has been out there for six years. I agree that it isn't nowhere near as big of a deal as cracking Microsoft code or DVD whatever, there still are enough hackers out there to have made the attempt just for bragging rights. And they've failed."

I am no great authority on hacking but you are making an assumption here I cannot ignore. If someone had successfully hacked SACD (i.e. DSD) I imagine they would let Sony know about it and then get paid off to keep quiet. This would not be the first time such a thing has happened. It costs them their bragging rights - but the compensation from Sony would probably cover it.

May have happened - may not - I would just be surprised if genuinely no-one is capable of hacking digital imformation on a disk. Arent SACD disks merely DVD disks that have been encoded differently anyway?

[Parrot]

LOL! You think I am the one making assumptions! But you imagine that someone has

hacked SACD but was paid off! Was he the same guy who made a car that

gets 100 miles per gallon but was paid off by General Motors (for

reasons that make no sense) to keep quiet?

[Mallette]

Jeez, Parrot, I have neither the time nor the inclination to write a technical treatise here. This is just for grins. I've found most on the forum to be able to pick what I mean out of my meanderings without having to demonstrate the verity of every point. It is al MHO and your mileage will vary.

If you ever make it to Texas, I'll show and demonstrate more than a handful of "ping-pong" recordings from my collection, including classical. Just because you never heard one does not mean it does not exist.

Dave

[maxg]

"May have happened - may not ..."

Hardly an assumption one way or another. Just wild speculation - but if someone had hacked SACD (which is a big if I grant) then Sony paying them off to keep quiet would not be a surprise.

All of this is, of course, entirely academic. What is not academic is that the main bird Sony killed with their approach is....sales. On that, I think, we agree at least.

[Jeff Matthews]

LOL! You think I am the one making assumptions! But you imagine that someone has hacked SACD but was paid off! Was he the same guy who made a car that gets 100 miles per gallon but was paid off by General Motors (for reasons that make no sense) to keep quiet?

I had no idea you've been trailing me! Now, my cover's blown. Yes, my car is equipped with a SACD hacker, and it gets 100 mpg. Does this mean I have to return all the payola?

[Parrot]

Jeez, Parrot, I have neither the time nor the

inclination to write a technical treatise here. This is just for

grins. I've found most on the forum to be able to pick what I

mean out of my meanderings without having to demonstrate the verity of

every point. It is al MHO and your mileage will vary.

If you ever make it to Texas, I'll show and demonstrate more than a

handful of "ping-pong" recordings from my collection, including

classical. Just because you never heard one does not mean it does

not exist.

Dave

You needn't get all defensive just because I have called you on your

exaggeration. The odds of you having numerous "ping-pong" recordings

(which you originally posted as the *majority*, not a handful) that I

have not heard, when I have heard more than a hundred, is just too

slight. Why don't you name me some classical titles that are ping-pongy?

SACD is near dying as it is and doesn't need to be helped along by

erroneously characterizing SACD multichannel as gimmicky ping-pong.

[Mallette]

I do not recall anyone, including me, referring to SACD as "gimmicky ping-pong."

SACD is simply a medium. It's no better or worse than the performance and engineering behind it than anything else. I never blame the bag for the groceries.

Dave

[Jeff Matthews]

I do not recall anyone, including me, referring to SACD as "gimmicky ping-pong."

SACD is simply a medium. It's no better or worse than the performance and engineering behind it than anything else. I never blame the bag for the groceries.

Dave

You mean you've never had one of them crappy grocery bags before? I have. Perfectly good groceries all over the ground...

[fini]

TMBG, "Dead"

I returned a bag of groceries

Accidently taken off the shelf

Before the expiration date

I came back as a bag of groceries

Accidently taken off the shelf

Before the date stamped on myself

Did a large procession wave their (Did a)

Torches as my head fell in the basket, (large pro-)

And was everybody dancing on the casket? (cession dance?)

Now it's over I'm dead and I haven't done anything that I want (now it's over)

Or, I'm still alive and there's nothing I want to do

I will never say the word

Procrastinate again; I'll never

See myself in the mirror with my eyes closed

I didn't apologize for

When I was eight and I made my younger brother

Have to be my personal slave

Did a large procession wave their (Did a)

Torches as my head fell in the basket, (large pro-)

And was everybody dancing on the casket? (cession dance?)

Now it's over I'm dead and I haven't done anything that I want (now it's over)

Or, I'm still alive and there's nothing I want to do

(So) So I won't

(Sit) sit at home

(And) anymore

(And) and you won't

(And) see my head in

(And) the window

(And) and I won't

(And) be around

(And) ever anymore

(And) and I'll be up there on the wall at the store

I returned a bag of groceries

Accidently taken off the shelf

Before the expiration date

I came back as a bag of groceries

Accidently taken off the shelf

Before the date stamped on myself

Did a large procession wave their (Did a)

Torches as my head fell in the basket, (large pro-)

And was everybody dancing on the casket? (cession dance?)

Now it's over I'm dead and I haven't done anything that I want (now it's over)

Or, I'm still alive and there's nothing I want to do

Now it's over I'm dead and I haven't done anything that I want (now it's over)

Or, I'm still alive and there's nothing I want to do

[Parrot]

I do not recall anyone, including me, referring to SACD as "gimmicky ping-pong."

Others call it gimmicky, the cliche line is "flying guitars behind me." You mentioned "ping-pong." If you want to make a distinction between "on the order of ping-pong" and "ping-pong," that's fine. I guess anything could be construed as being "on the order of ping-pong." Football, for instance, is on the order of ping-pong, because both are games dealing with a ball.

I made the commensensical reading of your "ping-pong" statement to be that multichannel exhibits sounds bouncing around from one speaker to another, something that is patently untrue.

[Jeff Matthews]

I do not recall anyone, including me, referring to SACD as "gimmicky ping-pong."

Others call it gimmicky, the cliche line is "flying guitars behind me." You mentioned "ping-pong." If you want to make a distinction between "on the order of ping-pong" and "ping-pong," that's fine. I guess anything could be construed as being "on the order of ping-pong." Football, for instance, is on the order of ping-pong, because both are games dealing with a ball.

I made the commensensical reading of your "ping-pong" statement to be that multichannel exhibits sounds bouncing around from one speaker to another, something that is patently untrue.

But does it bloom?

[Mallette]

I made the commensensical reading of your "ping-pong" statement to be that multichannel exhibits sounds bouncing around from one speaker to another, something that is patently untrue.

Incorrect interpretation by you, or poor writing by me.

Any digital medium that delivers the binary info on it accurately is capable of garbage or glory. The choice is up to the engineer.

Dave

[edwinr]

One particuular multi channel SACD disc I own; Spyro Gyra 'In Modern Times', illustrates the intent of the engineer to exploit all channels to their fullest intent. There is no attempt to create a frontal 'soundstage' as such. You are there in the middle. At higher listening levels, this disc really drags you in - the music content itself, however, is borderline 'elevator music'. I own other multi channel SACD recordings where the rear channels are ambience only. These discs are still compelling listening, but the artistic intent is different.

SACD offers a truly discrete, multi-channel recording format, where the chances that some former Panasonic or Samsung refrigerator mechanic, now audio engineer, cannot implement his vision of an echo laden and phase effected DSP 'Night Club' program thereby spoiling the recording. SACD is the artist's choice of recording format. The format is here to stay. Yes, mistakes have been made in the marketing. But hopefully, this time, format superiority will triumph over marketing incompetence.

Now that I'm finished with my soap box oratory - have a nice day! []

[jpm]

sacd is dead

get over it

[Allan Songer]

Whatsa SACD?

[jpm]

history

[Parrot]

Special reading for Allan:

http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue22/max_music.htm

[edwinr]

Paul, so Allan can understand what SACD is, you might need to draw some diagrams with accompanying dialogue balloons. []

[Allan Songer]

If I wrote that drivel I'd use a pseudonym too. It's no wonder Audio publications attract so few readers.

"Max Dudious" indeed.