svs

[MrMcGoo]

kramskoi,

I spend all of my spare time and money verifying manufacturers' tests and reviewers' findings..........NOT. Are you inclined not to believe the information provided by our hosts? I have found their information to be reasonably accurate.

If you want absoulte scientific certainty, buy the subs in question and all the required test grade gear and test away, or.............

The people that run the tests for Klipsch are sometimes present on the forum. They are a wealth of information, if you are civil.

The most recent Klipsch subs were specifically designed to compete with the subs designed by Hsu and SVS among others. The Sub-12 owners on the forum report that their subs are very competitive.

Bill

[CECAA850]

I'm turned off by the svs-pb10 because of issues with it's internal bracing and tone/pulse (30 Hz) decay (enclosure resonance) and it's lowered "relative" output (though it is amazingly linear) compared to other subs in it's class. It does'nt seem to have much headroom at reference level listening and would appear to operate at it's limits in the most demanding program material. It's really too bad, because i was quite taken with this sub for a while, at least until i ran into the article about the resonance/output problem and it's lack of features.[]

We're talking about a $400.00 sub here. It's unrealistic to think that there won't be SOME compromises.

[CAS]

I chuckle at the idea that I'm missing out on anything below 30 Hz with my philosophy. Proponents of the sub 30 Hz performance tout sound pressure levels that cannot be heard and claim I'm missing sound that cannot be heard. This is not great logic.

BTW, my personal sub is the RSW-15 which falls off a bit below 25 Hz. It can shake the house down, probably due to the combination of the big driver and the big amp. In order to get a major improvement over a properly designed 12 inch sub with a 300 watt amp, you will need at least a 600 watt amp or larger.

Bill

Chuckle at it? I guess that's all in your opinion. I just desire a more capable sub.

The RSW-15 falls off a bit under 25Hz? Your measurements sound a bit qualitative. The independent test previously mentioned in this thread shows the RSW-15 drop like a stone under 35Hz. By 24 you're down 10+dB. I can't find any similarly good measurements for the sub-12, but I can't imagine it being significantly better.

[CAS]

I'm looking for a sealed sub which is ruler flat to 30 Hz(anechoic) in the $700 range at most...if it's even possible...else i may just go with the vtf-3 from HSU and be satisfied until i can trade up to an onix rocket ufw-12 or better. I like Klipsch products...(my HT uses Synergy mains, surrounds, and a IFI sub stacked with a dual-8 m&k for bass duties)...but subjective opinion backed by hard data is more convincing to me. Please send along anymore tidbits of information on the sub-12...thanks again[]

If you're looking for reference levels, sealed, ruler flat and under $700 then you're definitely looking for something other than Klipsch. At true reference levels you're looking at a minimum $1k investment.

[jagangjee]

Not quite sure what the general opinion is on HSU subs, but I have been very impressed with them. IMO, I would consider either an HSU or an SVS based on what I have heard, and from a price standpoint.

[MrMcGoo]

"The independent test previously mentioned in this thread shows the RSW-15 drop

like a stone under 35Hz. By 24 you're down 10+dB. I can't find any similarly good

measurements for the sub-12, but I can't imagine it being significantly better."

This statement is very strange. Tom Nousaine in Sound & Vision stated the RSW-15

has usable output to 16 Hz and is one of the best meauring subs that he has tested.

Home Theater Mag measured the -3db point of the RSW-15 at 21 Hz and the -6 point

at 19 Hz. Klipsch measured it at -3db at 19 Hz which is zero audible difference from

Home Theater except for people with sub sonic ears. But then audible differences

don't mean anything to some folks. To these folks it is all a macho measurement

game, not an audio hobby that is into quality sound.

Anyone can buy test gear. That does not mean that they know how to use it. Klipsch

has rigorously tested its speakers since the days of Paul Klipsch who published the

results in peer reviewed engineering journals. Klipsch continues to test, but has

better instrumentation and facilities than in PWK's day.

Klipsch is not into super flat frequency response like Paradigm and others. Flat

frequency response does not sound good to many folks. Klipsch is into live sound,

not measurement games.

For example, many folks say that SVS is good for movies, but is not as musical as

Klipsch subwoofers. Personally, I like a sub that can reproduce music in such a

manner that bass instruments of whatever kind sound like that intrument. Movies

do not suffer in that environment.

Bill

[silent hill]

Thanks guy's for all of your help in helping me decide what sub to buy. You all gave me great advice and product information. I have desided on what sub to buy. I chose the Klipsch Sub-12, because this is the only sub that I have heard personally that I want. All of the other sub's I was thinking about getting I havn't heard myself. So, I think that I am making the write choice by getting the fantastic Klipsch Sub-12.

I am only 15 years old so I definitly have plenty of time to upgrade latter if I want. By the way if any of you guy's were courious about what system i'm running here that I would need such a powerful sub for here is what I have.

. Yamaha HTR-5740 6.1 Channel A/V Home Theater receiver

. Yamaha DV-S5750 DVD Player

. Toshiba 27" Flat Screen TV

. Klipsch SF-3 (2)

. Klipsch Quintet II Speaker System

. Klipsch Sub-12

. Everything is hooked up with Monster Cable speaker wire

.PS2

. Xbox

Once again, thanks guy's for all your help!

[CAS]

"

This statement is very strange. Tom Nousaine in Sound & Vision stated the RSW-15

has usable output to 16 Hz and is one of the best meauring subs that he has tested.

Home Theater Mag measured the -3db point of the RSW-15 at 21 Hz and the -6 point

at 19 Hz. Klipsch measured it at -3db at 19 Hz which is zero audible difference from

Home Theater except for people with sub sonic ears. But then audible differences

don't mean anything to some folks.

Bill

Usable outbput to 16 HZ? It's a good sub but that's a joke. Please show me this article as the study above shows the response go flat at that point which I can only assume it went absolutely silent.

Read up on how to interpret decible level. They are exponential. An extra 6db effectively doubles the sound pressure level.

[MrMcGoo]

CAS,

You and your avatar are the joke.

The exact quote from Tom Noisaine: "It [the RSW-15] went all the way down to 16 Hz,

though with a rise in distortion at the lowest frequencies."

Sound & Vision, May, 2002, p.50.

Bill

[MrMcGoo]

Thanks guy's for all of your help in helping me decide what sub to buy. You all gave me great advice and product information. I have desided on what sub to buy. I chose the Klipsch Sub-12, because this is the only sub that I have heard personally that I want. All of the other sub's I was thinking about getting I havn't heard myself. So, I think that I am making the write choice by getting the fantastic Klipsch Sub-12.

I am only 15 years old so I definitly have plenty of time to upgrade latter if I want. By the way if any of you guy's were courious about what system i'm running here that I would need such a powerful sub for here is what I have.

. Yamaha HTR-5740 6.1 Channel A/V Home Theater receiver

. Yamaha DV-S5750 DVD Player

. Toshiba 27" Flat Screen TV

. Klipsch SF-3 (2)

. Klipsch Quintet II Speaker System

. Klipsch Sub-12

. Everything is hooked up with Monster Cable speaker wire

.PS2

. Xbox

Once again, thanks guy's for all your help!

Silent Hill,

Enjoy the new sub.

After you have put it through its paces, let us know how it did.

Bill

[boomer9911]

and here I thought it was dead long ago, those cheap bd's still don't have a forum on their site.....SAYS ALOT....the invasion is back....we shall fight at the doors and never surrender....

merry christmas kids....[]

[CAS]

CAS,

You and your avatar are the joke.

The exact quote from Tom Noisaine: "It [the RSW-15] went all the way down to 16 Hz,

though with a rise in distortion at the lowest frequencies."

Sound & Vision, May, 2002, p.50.

Bill

Uh oh. Sounds like sour grapes.

Went all the way down to means it operated until, not usable until.

His statement corroberates exactly what this study shows.

By 16 Hz it's silent.

[MrMcGoo]

CAS,

Logic is not your strong suit. Silent you say at 16 Hz. True, but only

because people do not hear below 20 Hz until SPLs are beyond

what my sound meter can measure. But then explain the distortion

part at lower frequencies. If there was no SPL, then there would be

no distortion.

Bill

[Trey Cannon]

First, Our subs are not tested in the anechoic chamber.

It can not test frequencys that low in the chamber. It is not large enough.

Subs are tested outside. In a ground plane location or in a 1/8 space (corner). this is the one of the best ways to get good data from a sub.

You can test it nearfield. ( the test mic less than 1/2 inch from the driver) but if the sub has a port you add more problems to the test.

I don't know if we have tested the SVS sub you ask about. I do know that we do test many subs in the same price range as the one we build.

With our goal is to play louder and lower and flatter than the rest in the price range.

[jagangjee]

Silent Hill,

That is one thing that you can always rely on, your hearing ability. I have found that no matter who you ask or talk to, the deciding factor is what "sounds" good to you as everyone has different hearing capabilities. A dear friend of mine has a polk system, and he loves it. It sounds good, but overall I am not impressed. My father has NHT's w/ HSU and I long to have a system like his, it blows mine out of the water.

Being 15, you off to a great start in the HT arena. I am sure you made the right decision...enjoy!

[TheEAR]

A brief look at the Klipsch numbers versus the SVS PB-10 ISD numbers reveals that the Klipsch sub is more conservatively rated at 1% distortion and plays 7 db louder at 30 Hz, a frequency that can be heard. The SVS never made it over 110 db versus the 117 for the Klipsch. Bigger drivers do matter.

Extension below 30 Hz and even 20 Hz is into the subsonic level for most humans. Most folks do not hear much below 30 Hz. At 30 Hz, most current Klipsch subs kick like a mule and do well with both movies and music.

Bill

I thought it was just 2 channel people who still say they don't use <30Hz. Think of it this way Bill. If my sub is an instrument that is used for everything below 80Hz and I don't think I need anything below 30Hz, I'm robbing myself of nearly 25% of material that is clearly recorded on music and movies (yes, both routinely go into the teens. Believe it or not. Many times it is those without subs capable of such feats who don't think they need the extension. If you don't routinely hear (feel) it then I understand your disbelief). That's not acceptable. If your RF-7's stopped playing 25% of their material you would call that unacceptable as well. For many people, the lowest octaves are some of the most important for their subwoofer. The realism obtained from actually feeling your music or movie into the subsonics is irreplaceable.

I'm not saying one sub is better than the other. I am saying that the notion that subsonics aren't important is somewhat outdated.

With the gear in your sig you are robbing yourself of 25% of quality! No matter how deep that toiletpaper tube of a sub reaches. []

[CAS]

A brief look at the Klipsch numbers versus the SVS PB-10 ISD numbers reveals that the Klipsch sub is more conservatively rated at 1% distortion and plays 7 db louder at 30 Hz, a frequency that can be heard. The SVS never made it over 110 db versus the 117 for the Klipsch. Bigger drivers do matter.

Extension below 30 Hz and even 20 Hz is into the subsonic level for most humans. Most folks do not hear much below 30 Hz. At 30 Hz, most current Klipsch subs kick like a mule and do well with both movies and music.

Bill

I thought it was just 2 channel people who still say they don't use <30Hz. Think of it this way Bill. If my sub is an instrument that is used for everything below 80Hz and I don't think I need anything below 30Hz, I'm robbing myself of nearly 25% of material that is clearly recorded on music and movies (yes, both routinely go into the teens. Believe it or not. Many times it is those without subs capable of such feats who don't think they need the extension. If you don't routinely hear (feel) it then I understand your disbelief). That's not acceptable. If your RF-7's stopped playing 25% of their material you would call that unacceptable as well. For many people, the lowest octaves are some of the most important for their subwoofer. The realism obtained from actually feeling your music or movie into the subsonics is irreplaceable.

I'm not saying one sub is better than the other. I am saying that the notion that subsonics aren't important is somewhat outdated.

With the gear in your sig you are robbing yourself of 25% of quality! No matter how deep that toiletpaper tube of a sub reaches. []

Ah, that's what I love about that ear! Constructive as always!

My gear? I wouldn't disagree with you in the least.

But I would note that you're probably robbing yourself of 25% of your living space and subsequent female companionship with all that money into your sub fetish. []

[CAS]

CAS,

Logic is not your strong suit. Silent you say at 16 Hz. True, but only

because people do not hear below 20 Hz until SPLs are beyond

what my sound meter can measure. But then explain the distortion

part at lower frequencies. If there was no SPL, then there would be

no distortion.

Bill

You still don't understand what it's like to feel music or movies.

I would have no problem inviting you over to see what I mean.

[TheEAR]

I see your legendaty sense of humor leaves you with 25% of truth. [] Me,I am always here to help the misguided and protect honnest Klipschers against SVS sales people in disguise. []

[MrMcGoo]

CAS,

Your logic has not improved. Although I stated that humans hear very little

below 30 Hz and nothing below 20 Hz at relevant SPLs, I never stated that

shake is unimportant or that I don't feel the shake in movies. You just

can't HEAR the shake, so measuring SOUND pressure levels in the sub

sonic range is not very useful IMO.

Sound waves at 20 Hz are about 100 feet long and travel right through the

structure. The sub itself shakes the room in addition to the pressure wave. I

have yet to see a useful means of acurately measuring the seismic effects

of a sub that any hobbiest can afford. I can certainly feel my RSW-15 shake

the house, but cannot quantify the shake. The shake factor is small at 22 Hz

while the SPL is huge at 22 Hz.

Even though I cannot quantify the shake factor when Master and

Commander plays at 20 db below reference levels, my wife and dogs think

the house is falling down. I have yet to see any informaton as to which

frequencies in Master and Commander cause the "shake effect."

Back to the RSW-15: In my room I have massive (reference level +++)

output down to 21 Hz with the sub's gain at 9:00 and the processor at

+6 db. My frequency sweep on Avia stops at 20 Hz, so I cannot test Tom

Nousaine's claim of 16 Hz.

Bill