I Bought Klipschorns :)

[Jeff Matthews]

[You have to turn the 60 watt amp down to get to the same dynamics. So, there's a point when you are turning it too high and getting more volume in some aspects of the song without proportional increases in the other parts.

A more powerful amp would allow you to go beyond and still maintain the dynamics. My point was that the Khorns will do ALOT more with great dynamics than a 60 watt amp will give them.

I don't believe this Jeff. It's a vast assumption you're making. I'm not losing notes when we crank this 65wpc (80-85 peak). It's just not happening. We have decent ears here. Hubby's a muscian and not just one that does it 'by ear'. He can tell you exactly what notes are being played at any given section of a song. We are NOT hearing any drop off anywhere when cranked. We are not losing dynamics either.

You're not losing notes. You're losing the relative volume. Did you draw that graph? If so, you would see that as you crank it up, each note is supposed to go proportionately louder. So with the 65 watt horizontal line drawn across the graph, as you go louder, more of the notes are trying to converge at the 65 watt limit. This is a relative volume of each note issue and not losing notes or tones. You are playing it so loud, you don't notice the drop in dynamics - because it is so loud. What you are missing is that with more power, it would not "sound" as "loud." It would come out much more smoothly, and with less effort. It would be louder - just not as "rattling" loud.

And..... none of this made sense to you because you have great ears, you love music and it just sounds so good. Wait and see, and then, I can say "I told you so."

[3dzapper]

Jeff, If you are listening to Khorns LOUD, divide your numbers by a factor of ten and you will be closer to reality.

That said, not every 100 watt amplifier can deliver 20 clean watts per channel with all channels driven and a bass heavy recording. A very heafty power supply is necessary to achieve that feat. Too many of today's multichannel amps can barely reach their claimed power with one channel at a time let alone five or more.

That is why so many swear by the amps and recievers built in the seventies like the HK x30 series. The Federal standards that were in force then demanded that the power supplies be overbuilt to pass the test. An amp from that era from the mid to upper echelon were built like tanks. Amps like Marantz, HK, Sansui of course the Macs could dish out the power as their power supply rails were fed from massive supplies and the output devices were attached to mammoth heat sinks.

Can one still buy such consumer amps today? Sure, but not at a Consumer box store. Halco, Krell, et al still make some outstanding consumer amps that will put out their specified power and then some.

Your and Dukes Crowns are another animal. They are proffessional amps built for day after day of pounding. Where I have problems with every Crown I have ever heard is not at 110Db in a night club, rather at 80 db in a home system. I personnally stopped being a fan of bi-polar devices years ago with my Khorns. For years I used a Nikko true 110WPC FET output power amp with my Marantz 2325 as the pre. Even when I spent the, for me, "big bucks" on my Yamaha RX-V1 surround amp I was not pleased with the front channels using the bi-polar Yami. Instead I used the Nikko from the Yami's front out ports.

Then,,, I started visiting here more and more. The rest, along with my money, is history.

Rick

[mikebse2a3]

I should have started another thread.

I do not listen to easy listening type stuff at low volumes. I want to be able to blast the house into outerspace if I want BUT - I want it to sound great also. I think these speakers are capable of that. There's no doubt in my mind. I like knowing that. I did one thing right - for sure.

1. About low watt tubes vs. mega watts. I'm having a conceptual problem with both. I don't see the point in having 400 wpc when I only use 60, and I can't see being able to crank a 20, 30, 40 wpc as loud as I need.

2. I have another conceptual problem with the assumption that my new HK is cr*p by people who I bet never heard them or peg it as cr*p just because it's new and therefore HAS to be bad? Or that I MUST BE hearing distortion, lack of dynamics, clipping at loud volumes without being here.

3. I'm willing to upgrade but only if I can hear a difference/improvement via testing without purchase. Everyone raves about that Sonic Impact $25-30 amp and we couldn't even go through a whole song with it before yanking in disgust. It was awful. It's in the basement. As is the 1984 Yamaha receiver that's also inferior sounding than this HK. I can see a very real possibility of me dumping bucks into a new amp and it not being as good as the HK.

And I believe it boils down to what's being listened to, but that shouldn't be. There should be some semblance of absolute facts but I'm not finding them.

Am I right in my assumption that an older tube or older receiver that only goes to 40 wpc - won't be able to be cranked as loud as 65 wpc? Am I missing something? If right, then I can't see going lower in wpc no matter what the form. It would be a downgrade - right?

1. Are you even using all the 60 watts? The Khorns are so efficient you might be surprised. So whether 30 or 40 watts would satisfy you is a good question.

2. I agree with you.

3.Very Wise Thinking meagain on spending money and upgradeing!

As far as the loudness level of a 40 watt amp versus a 60 watt amp it would be less than most people think. To actually double the perceived volume level of a 40 watt amp you are looking at a factor of 10 which means close to a 400 watt amp.

meagain I tried to e-mail you but it wouldn't go through( something about spaceing)

Anyway if you have any questions that I can help with about the EQ/Room/Behringer feel free to E-mail me and just indicate Klipsch Forum in subject line.

mike

[Jeff Matthews]

3-D, your point is well-taken if your comments are to be taken that the Crown is an entirely different animal than the HK. That's what is hard to convey. Somebody hears their 65watt HK sounding so loud and clear, wonders what they are missing, can't equate to the power of Crown because they are already playing so loud, so can't imagine what is different/better about the Crown. Them's would be dynamics.

BTW, 3-D. If you've been following meagain's thread, it is obvious they love LOUD. So, we are talking more than 80dB. That's where Crown comes in and shines. It's not a pro-amp for nothing.

[Allan Songer]

3-D, your point is well-taken if your comments are to be taken that the Crown is an entirely different animal than the HK. That's what is hard to convey. Somebody hears their 65watt HK sounding so loud and clear, wonders what they are missing, can't equate to the power of Crown because they are already playing so loud, so can't imagine what is different/better about the Crown. Them's would be dynamics.

BTW, 3-D. If you've been following meagain's thread, it is obvious they love LOUD. So, we are talking more than 80dB. That's where Crown comes in and shines. It's not a pro-amp for nothing.

As long as you like really bad shrill loud rock and roll music played at ear splitting volumes, that is . . .

Otherwise, NONSENSE!

They're called "pro amps" because they are designed and marketed for something COMPLETELY different from 2-channel hi-fi reproduction.

[78Khorn]

Meagain, if you have the opportunity to have someone bring a McIntosh amp over to your room to hear your speakers powered by it I would take them up on the offer. It will validate the sound you are hearing from your current receiver. As long as your current receiver passes muster then I wouldn't make that your first move for improvement.

Since your speakers are 1981 vintage I would think that the best improvement you can get for the buck after ensuring you have good corners and seals would be:

1) Have crossovers reworked. (made a big difference on my 1977's Khorns and I didn't know there was a problem)

2) Equalization if you have room EQ problems (once you do crossovers you may not feel the need to EQ anymore)

3) Different amplifier.

I will say that placing my speakers on the long wall of my room made a difference.

78 Khorn

Meagain, only by listening to your receiver vs another amp will you know if there is a big improvement. A change is this area will be your largest expenditure and possibly not the most noticable one (again easily proven by having another amp hooked up to your speakers and compare). I don't think I've ever heard anyone here on this forum who has 20+ year old Khorns who didn't think that a crossover network update/upgrade made a big difference. On my Khorns the bass became fuller, the sound smoother (warmer/ less bright) with no loss of detail. I'm sure others could give you there experiences as well. Or you could go look up a crossover thread.

78 Khorn

[Jeff Matthews]

They're called "pro amps" because they are designed and marketed for something COMPLETELY different from 2-channel hi-fi reproduction.

Funny, seeing as 2-channel hi-fi reproduction attempts to re-produce. Re-produce what? I wonder......

Could it be........ the music that was made through those pro-amps?

[Allan Songer]

They're called "pro amps" because they are designed and marketed for something COMPLETELY different from 2-channel hi-fi reproduction.

Funny, seeing as 2-channel hi-fi reproduction attempts to re-produce. Re-produce what? I wonder......

Could it be........ the music that was made through those pro-amps?

Not any of the music I listen to, pal . . .

[Jeff Matthews]

Allan, are you baiting with a bunch of negatives - just looking for excitement? Or do you have a positive recommendation?

EQ = virtually flat improvement with focus on limited bandwiths.

Crossovers = re-tuning speakers - not too far from EQ.

Change room = build a new house.

Tubes = oh so nice jazz brunch.

These folks have been saying they want power. They rock the house down - only they want to rock the house down and have it sound even better. This, amigo, is where headroom comes in.

Doesn't have to be Crown. God forbid it gets any shriller. [] But power is needed from some source.

[stormin]

Doesn't have to be Crown. God forbid it gets any shriller. [] But power is needed from some source.

So does that mean while the bass is pounding your chest your ears are bleeding?[]

[Jeff Matthews]

Doesn't have to be Crown. God forbid it gets any shriller. [] But power is needed from some source.

So does that mean while the bass is pounding your chest your ears are bleeding?[]

Exactly!!! If the ears don't bleed, then there is no need!!!

[meagain]

Allan Songer - What DO you listen to? I think this is semi-important to the discusssion of these things. What do you use for gear?

We listen to a very wide variety. Everything really - except for Country.

Tuit - are you saying the Crowns don't do very well at normal or low listening levels as they do for very high? Cuz they were designed for loud?

We would only listen to 'blasting' levels if we were sitting there staring at the wall for a listening session. Otherwise, hubby listens at low volumes to more mellower music (jazz/classical) on Sunday mornings while reading the paper. Or when puttering around the house cleaning, etc. on a Saturday - we wouldn't necessarily be blasting it either as we'd need to talk occasionally.

It's important to be able to have it sound great both loud & soft. I want it all.

Mike - Way back a zillion pages in this thread, you mentioned about foam on the horizontal part of the top? of the bass bin. I was unclear if you felt that should or shouldn't be foamed. We foamed it. I'm wondering if I should try taking it off. The email system works ok as I'm getting a few emailing me advise off the forum. I'll shoot you an email so you can reply to me. I know via reading that this Behringer EQ is going to be tricky to learn & I'll make hubby read the manual (he's not really good about this) as I feel it will be beyond my scope. But I'll make sure we learn as much as possible before resorting to questions.

Here's my current critique. Prior to snugging/foaming into the corners & adding thicker speakerwire - I think they sounded better. A bit. Actually, we almost felt like we lost bass after the tweak. I think I have it back, but my problems are more on the high end whether played loud or soft. I have basically 2 setting on this HK. Using the HK's internal semi-EQ, and manual. Manual is a bit harsh at spots. Vocal "S's" and "T's" can be piercing. In a certain range - there's a 'hall-like' effect. Airey. Bass is great tho. Using HK's auto pilot - it fixes these problems but goes overboard to make things a bit muddled and I lose some mid/high. What we want is a happy medium between the 2 and can't tweak it. I need a gadget that can tweak it. Hopeing the EQ will allow this.

Basically, I want a mixing board sitting on my coctail table. This all might be the room's fault but I'm frustrated I can't tweak. I'm thinking the EQ will allow this?

[Jeff Matthews]

This all might be the room's fault but I'm frustrated I can't tweak. I'm thinking the EQ will allow this.

If you have tone controls, you have a built-in EQ. But go get your EQ so you can start a new thread about what it does and will not do. Best wishes.

[meagain]

Yes I have separate bass/treble controls, but it doesn't cut it for what I want to do.

[Jeff Matthews]

Please detail what you want to do. I don't think you adequately described what you think is lacking.

[mikebse2a3]

Yes meagain I'm saying because your wall the Khorns are on is about 12' that maybe leaving the top(horizontal part unsealed could help you in your room and it will cost nothing to try.

I've got to leave out but later when I get a chance if you will e-mail me I might have another idea ot two for you to try meagain based on some of what you just wrote.

mike[]

[meagain]

Mike - I emailed you. I was skeptical about the foam from the get go. And if the khorns use the walls, I would think foam on the horiz area would 'cut' the wall up? IDK

Jeff - The 2 options the HK afford me are quite different. One ('manual' or real) is almost echoey/hall-like/hollowish sounding on the upper ranges. Some harshness/uncomfortableness. Lower stuff sounds pretty darned good. The other, (HK's take on it via their little microphone on a wire test thingy) removes this (warms it up) but goes overboard. Too rich, almost muddled, and I lose detail in the mid? and possibly higher ranges. I almost want to up the treble to acommodate it but when I played with that - it helped a tad but didn't cut it. While it eliminates any harshness, I lose crispness & it pushes some mid stuff too far back. Drums/bass sound great to me though either way.

Was watching Primus 'Halucinogentics' DVD the other day and OMG - Tim Alexanders's drums were so clear & tight sounding.

I wish I had a gadget that would tell me specifically where my issues were as it's hard to describe. But if I could find a happy medium between the 2 above, I'd be pretty happy for the immediate future. Sorry - it's hard to describe.

[Duke Spinner]

Duke - You said you rotate about 4 speakers every month or so. Do you need that 400wpc (or whatever) for the Khorns? Or do you need it cuz you use the amp to run the JBLs etc?

VErrrry Perceptive, Megain

yes, the K-2 is there to drive all the JBL's ....

the 4430's are the least efficient, because in order to produce a Damn near Flat response . they are throwing away Ton's of Watts in the crossover..

the KH would make me happy with probably 200 wpc

but I could never be a 10 watt guy...,or 60 either

I would also mention , that the K-2 is an EXTREMELY popular Studio Monitor amplifier for full field listening

[Jeff Matthews]

Man, I don't know. I think a poll of people on here would show just about everyone rarely fiddles with EQ or tone controls - it being preferred to just play flat. I've never encountered any of these issues - regardless of set-up or room configurations. Small rooms (10x11) still sounded great. Now, I'm in a 15x20. Still sounds great.

You've got me baffled. I think you could try an EQ if you're inclined to toy with individual frequencies, although that has not been my inclination for 20 years. Apparently, though, your amp puts out sounds on both extremes of your liking. So, a middle ground might be an EQ, which surprises me.

Describe some more. Turn it at 1/3 volume (moderate). What are your observations on both settings? Turn it loud - but not cranked like crazy. What are your observations on both settings? Is there any difference in quality as volume increases?

[Jeff Matthews]

I would also mention , that the K-2 is an EXTREMELY popular Studio Monitor amplifier for full field listening

Mr. Duke. That K-2 sure is pretty. Do they make a matching pre-amp? That'd be cool! Not that I'd go spend the bucks on a set-up, but if I could land a used one cheap, I could move my existing Crown down to my Corns hooked up to downstairs HT/stereo.