I Bought Klipschorns :)

[Duke Spinner]

That's Easy .....

6L6

looses out ...............[]

K-2 ...All the Way, Baby

[Jeff Matthews]

That's what I figured - and from a guy that owns and plays both in his system --

Okay, tubers!

EDIT: But I guess you'll say poor Duke has a crappy tube.

[mike stehr]

[kev313]

what?? speak up!

[Jeff Matthews]

No Mdeneen. You have me wrong. It's REALLY LOUD plus REALLY DYNAMIC. Don't know if you saw my example with the numbers a few pages back, but when you cap-off or limit your power, you lose dynamics when you turn it up. Look at these relative sets of numbers in terms of a series of notes at various power levels (which is dynamics)

Set A: 5, 10, 40, 150, 130, 200, 60, 80, 200, 300, 40, 30, 40, 40. That's what you'll hear if your amp does 300 watts.

If your amp does 60 watts, here's what you'll hear:

Set B: 5, 10, 40, 60, 60, 60, 60, 60, 60, 60, 40, 30, 40, 40. So, with the limited power, your throwing all your notes against the ceiling and losing all the dynamics.

[Z4!]

Very well said, mdeneen!

[Jeff Matthews]

And to follow up, when you throw so many of your notes at the ceiling, it starts to sound belabored - and you confuse that with distortion. It's not distortion - you just lose dynamics. There's no more spread in the notes - and it all seems to be rocking pretty evenly hard. That's the problem, it should not be evenly hard. It should be dynamic.

[Allan Songer]

No Mdeneen. You have me wrong. It's REALLY LOUD plus REALLY DYNAMIC. Don't know if you saw my example with the numbers a few pages back, but when you cap-off or limit your power, you lose dynamics when you turn it up. Look at these relative sets of numbers in terms of a series of notes at various power levels (which is dynamics)

Set A: 5, 10, 40, 150, 130, 200, 60, 80, 200, 300, 40, 30, 40, 40. That's what you'll hear if your amp does 300 watts.

If your amp does 60 watts, here's what you'll hear:

Set B: 5, 10, 40, 60, 60, 60, 60, 60, 60, 60, 40, 30, 40, 40. So, with the limited power, your throwing all your notes against the ceiling and losing all the dynamics.

Nonsense

[Jeff Matthews]

No Mdeneen. You have me wrong. It's REALLY LOUD plus REALLY DYNAMIC. Don't know if you saw my example with the numbers a few pages back, but when you cap-off or limit your power, you lose dynamics when you turn it up. Look at these relative sets of numbers in terms of a series of notes at various power levels (which is dynamics)

Set A: 5, 10, 40, 150, 130, 200, 60, 80, 200, 300, 40, 30, 40, 40. That's what you'll hear if your amp does 300 watts.

If your amp does 60 watts, here's what you'll hear:

Set B: 5, 10, 40, 60, 60, 60, 60, 60, 60, 60, 40, 30, 40, 40. So, with the limited power, your throwing all your notes against the ceiling and losing all the dynamics.

Nonsense

Allan's favorite song???? "No Reply at All" by Phil Collins.

[Z4!]

[Allan Songer]

No Mdeneen. You have me wrong. It's REALLY LOUD plus REALLY DYNAMIC. Don't know if you saw my example with the numbers a few pages back, but when you cap-off or limit your power, you lose dynamics when you turn it up. Look at these relative sets of numbers in terms of a series of notes at various power levels (which is dynamics)

Set A: 5, 10, 40, 150, 130, 200, 60, 80, 200, 300, 40, 30, 40, 40. That's what you'll hear if your amp does 300 watts.

If your amp does 60 watts, here's what you'll hear:

Set B: 5, 10, 40, 60, 60, 60, 60, 60, 60, 60, 40, 30, 40, 40. So, with the limited power, your throwing all your notes against the ceiling and losing all the dynamics.

Nonsense

Allan's favorite song???? "No Reply at All" by Phil Collins.

Haven't listened to much Phil Collins--only what has filtered in over the years--from what I've heard his music is . . .

nonsense

[Jeff Matthews]

Jeff---attached is a chart of let's say dynamic range of some series of sounds (might even be a song). I can achieve that identical sequence of "dynamics" with a 0.1W amp, a 1W amp, or a 1000W amp with my Klipsch speakers. Not one iota of any red bar will be "chopped off" "left off" "cut off" "forgotton" "lost" or missing in any way whatsover. I can use a tube, a mosfet, a bipolar or a switching amp. Makes no difference. None. Zero. The ONLY thing which I will change in each case is the average LOUDNESS OF THE TOTAL SOUND. To get more specific, your series of number above asserts that any number higher than "60" will be chopped off when using a 60W amp. Well, what you didn't say, is that such would only be true if you played the 60W amp at about 60W of AVERAGE output. This is not how people use tube amps (or really any other amp I know of). For your benefit, I'd word it this way: "turn the 60W amp DOWN until the highest "number" passes through the amp unscathed. All the rest will follow." Nothing lost. md

No, it would be chopped off anywhere the output was "looking for" over 60 watts. You can achieve the identical set of dynamics if everything is proportionately turned down AND you had no peaks above 60 watts. So, anything above 60 watts is lost. Makes a huge difference when the original dynamics was "looking to" push 200 watts.

So with less power, all your peaks merge much more quickly at the lower ceiling. That's why you can't make out the details as well at higher volumes, and you get greater dynamics/separation when you turn it down. Many would equate that with distortion, but it's not. If you add more power, you raise the ceiling, which makes a huge difference in dynamics, especially in very dynamic songs.

[78Khorn]

Meagain, if you have the opportunity to have someone bring a McIntosh amp over to your room to hear your speakers powered by it I would take them up on the offer. It will validate the sound you are hearing from your current receiver. As long as your current receiver passes muster then I wouldn't make that your first move for improvement.

Since your speakers are 1981 vintage I would think that the best improvement you can get for the buck after ensuring you have good corners and seals would be:

1) Have crossovers reworked. (made a big difference on my 1977's Khorns and I didn't know there was a problem)

2) Equalization if you have room EQ problems

3) Different amplifier.

I will say that placing my speakers on the long wall of my room made a difference.

78 Khorn

[Allan Songer]

No, it would be chopped off anywhere the output was "looking for" over 60 watts. You can achieve the identical set of dynamics if everything is proportionately turned down AND you had no peaks above 60 watts.

Your getting deeper and deeper. Time to stop digging . . .

[Jeff Matthews]

No, it would be chopped off anywhere the output was "looking for" over 60 watts. You can achieve the identical set of dynamics if everything is proportionately turned down AND you had no peaks above 60 watts.

Your getting deeper and deeper. Time to stop digging . . .

I'm a big boy. Tell me where I'm too deep in it. And why does Duke choose his Crown K-2 hands down over his own tubes?

[meagain]

I should have started another thread.

I do not listen to easy listening type stuff at low volumes. I want to be able to blast the house into outerspace if I want BUT - I want it to sound great also. I think these speakers are capable of that. There's no doubt in my mind. I like knowing that. I did one thing right - for sure.

1. About low watt tubes vs. mega watts. I'm having a conceptual problem with both. I don't see the point in having 400 wpc when I only use 60, and I can't see being able to crank a 20, 30, 40 wpc as loud as I need.

2. I have another conceptual problem with the assumption that my new HK is cr*p by people who I bet never heard them or peg it as cr*p just because it's new and therefore HAS to be bad? Or that I MUST BE hearing distortion, lack of dynamics, clipping at loud volumes without being here.

3. I'm willing to upgrade but only if I can hear a difference/improvement via testing without purchase. Everyone raves about that Sonic Impact $25-30 amp and we couldn't even go through a whole song with it before yanking in disgust. It was awful. It's in the basement. As is the 1984 Yamaha receiver that's also inferior sounding than this HK. I can see a very real possibility of me dumping bucks into a new amp and it not being as good as the HK.

And I believe it boils down to what's being listened to, but that shouldn't be. There should be some semblance of absolute facts but I'm not finding them.

Am I right in my assumption that an older tube or older receiver that only goes to 40 wpc - won't be able to be cranked as loud as 65 wpc? Am I missing something? If right, then I can't see going lower in wpc no matter what the form. It would be a downgrade - right?

[meagain]

Also - are we keeping in mind the unique sensitivity of these speakers? The efficiency factor? They aren't normal - right? Don't they handle power differently and REALLY efficiently? Are we talking about normal speakers or klipsches? There's a difference- yes?

Duke - You said you rotate about 4 speakers every month or so. Do you need that 400wpc (or whatever) for the Khorns? Or do you need it cuz you use the amp to run the JBLs etc?

[Jeff Matthews]

Jeff---..... For your benefit, I'd word it this way: "turn the 60W amp DOWN until the highest "number" passes through the amp unscathed. All the rest will follow." Nothing lost. md

Md, you're exactly on the money with this last observation of yours. Maybe we were syaing the same thing. You have to turn the 60 watt amp down to get to the same dynamics. So, there's a point when you are turning it too high and getting more volume in some aspects of the song without proportional increases in the other parts.

A more powerful amp would allow you to go beyond and still maintain the dynamics. My point was that the Khorns will do ALOT more with great dynamics than a 60 watt amp will give them.

[Jeff Matthews]

Meagain, after all the debate and disagreement, here is what I think is most informative - my opinion! LOL.

No, really. Here's what I think are the most valuable points:

(1) mdeneen and I finally agree - actually, I think we always did and got to a common denominator. Your 65 watt HK will lose dynamics like mdeneen and I said - BUT it will only lose dynamics as you crank the volume past a certain level. Otherwise, no problem. The way you describe you like to crank it, you were already there in terms of losing dynamics. Mdeneen and I also agree that if REALLY LOUD is desired, you must have the power in order to MAINTAIN the same dynamics. Thank you, mdeneen, for clearing up what you meant - you're right on, amigo!

(2) Duke says he'd take his K-2 over his tubes hands down. I don't know if you caught that. And if you look at his equipment list (plus, I'd venture to guess the piles and piles of stuff he's gone through before), I'd venture to say he's qualified in his opinion.

[meagain]

[You have to turn the 60 watt amp down to get to the same dynamics. So, there's a point when you are turning it too high and getting more volume in some aspects of the song without proportional increases in the other parts.

A more powerful amp would allow you to go beyond and still maintain the dynamics. My point was that the Khorns will do ALOT more with great dynamics than a 60 watt amp will give them.

I don't believe this Jeff. It's a vast assumption you're making. I'm not losing notes when we crank this 65wpc (80-85 peak). It's just not happening. We have decent ears here. Hubby's a muscian and not just one that does it 'by ear'. He can tell you exactly what notes are being played at any given section of a song. We are NOT hearing any drop off anywhere when cranked. We are not losing dynamics either. You're telling me something's happening that we don't hear. And what you are saying is happening here - is VERY dramatic, in your face, and it sounds like we'd certainly hear it or we're deaf. Especially the clipping you are saying we must be getting.