Cal Blacksmith Posted January 13, 2006 Share Posted January 13, 2006 I use a HTPC so my investment is not all that large. Just like CDs and DVDs, HDDVD drives will come out for the PC and as has been said, there will be a crack for the copy protection within a short time, legal or not. I really do have an ax to grind with the entertainment industry, they punish the lawful user and complain about the hackers in other countries that make the pirate profits. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sfogg Posted January 13, 2006 Share Posted January 13, 2006 " I have absolutely no doubt whatsover that adapter boxes will make their way onto the market (that convert the digital signal to component)." There is no doubt whatsoever, they are already on the market. I have several myself.... Shawn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Q-Man Posted January 13, 2006 Share Posted January 13, 2006 I wouldn't buy anything with HDMI just yet. They don't have all the bugs worked out yet. Even if you now have HDMI, it may not work with the new changes coming up. I have a Parasound Halo C1 Controler (A/V pre-amp.) Parasound is working on an external box add on instead of sending the piece in to be upgraded, since this is a hardware upgrade. Software upgrades are done on line by downloads. You want to wait untill HDMI can also do audio instead of just video. Receivers always get the new toys first, When the bugs are worked out, these changes are put into the high end equipment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrWho Posted January 13, 2006 Share Posted January 13, 2006 The one thing missing here is a reward for customer loyalty. And I would argue that it is a direct result of bad engineering, or just bad business in general. And it's the number one reason Bose is still doing so well - not because they have a good product, but because they know how to sell the image. You don't have these problems in the pro-audio or even cinema industry. Sure there were some growing pains when digital came about. Or maybe I just never came across issues like this. Nevertheless, there certainly are far less compatibility and performance issues when the performance of the gear is the direct selling point - and not that of the "this is the best" image. Even if this new HD format thing comes out - the problem with it is a lack of foresight into the future. It can't natively be improved upon as current manufacturing process allow for better parts without entirely changing the medium again. I could go on for hours about this, but what we see now in the engineering world is a constant process of tweaking faulty designs to yield maximum performance instead of creatively engineering solutions to problems that can be improved upon. My favorite example is that of our wonderful telephone system (the land lines, NOT cell phones). It is a system that even to this day is being improved upon, yet it's still the same old fashioned design and even has a nearly 100% uptime - it's even more reliable than our electricity. And the whole reason is because the engineers back in the day over-engineered the medium so that improvements in manufacturing would yield improvements in the specific products. What we see today in the consumer audio world are over-tweaked mediums. Because of the wonderful liberties brought to us by computer modelling, we are able to engineer around limitations in manufacturing, which in the end result in products that can't be improved upon. And since we live in a profit driven market, the only real solution is to educate the masses to not buy into the hoopla. People wonder why the high-end brick and mortar stores are going way and I believe it's simply because they stopped educating about products in favor of just selling them. And customers can just get that at their local Best Buy and feel they're getting the same quality for a lot less. And now I have rambled on way too much...lol. But If I'm saying anything, it's that this market is in a downward spiral and the only people with the power to change it are those funding it - and that's us, the consumers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
picky Posted January 13, 2006 Author Share Posted January 13, 2006 I wouldn't buy anything with HDMI just yet. They don't have all the bugs worked out yet. Even if you now have HDMI, it may not work with the new changes coming up. I have a Parasound Halo C1 Controller (A/V pre-amp.) Parasound is working on an external box add on instead of sending the piece in to be upgraded, since this is a hardware upgrade. Software upgrades are done on line by downloads. You want to wait until HDMI can also do audio instead of just video. Receivers always get the new toys first, When the bugs are worked out, these changes are put into the high end equipment. Q-Man: An excellent point! In the home theater trade publication I receive 'Residential Systems', they are mentioning that the current HDMI connection, which is version 1.2 connectivity standard, will soon be eventually upgraded to version 1.3 to carry things such as 1080p video and advanced codec. For some people, this will mean a simple firmware update. For others, it may mean obsolesce, even though they have HDMI. EDIT: For those of you who think they are safe because of the fact you use an HTPC: Hold onto your jockey shorts: Here comes a new connection standard for you, too: DISPLAY PORT. The good part about owning an HTPC: It is usually upgradable. I can see why a lot of you went this route. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westcott Posted January 13, 2006 Share Posted January 13, 2006 It isn't often that I vent on this forum. It's not really my style, but knowing that this issue will eventually affect many of you and not just myself, I feel a bit compelled to express my disappointment and anger with the movie and consumer electronics industries here. I am also interested to hear your feelings on this subject as well. Why? Some of you already know the answer: HDMI In an effort to put an end to video piracy, the movie companies are insisting that home electronics manufacturers adopt the digital-only output formats of DVI or HDMI because they both carry the ability to utilize a higher level of copyright protection thereby preventing the pirating of DVDs. Component video jacks do not guard DVDs from being copied. I do not blame the movie companies for wanting to put an end to piracy and protect their properties. However, it was decided years ago and several different times in the supreme court that we has individuals are allowed to copy music and movies that we buy to use for our own purposes. What the movie giants have done here instead is to create a situation that the electronics industry has been fighting to keep from happened as it did in years past: It renders the new machines non-backward compatible! Yes, they will still be able to play older DVDs and CDs, but they will not be playable on machines lacking HDMI or DVI jacks even if they are HDTV-approved equipment. Besides, everyone knows, six months after it is released, the hackers will have a crack for HDMI anyway. So who are they really hurting? Law-bidding consumers. I have spoken to the advanced team at Pioneer and am waiting to hear from the same at Sharp. Pioneer's team currently has no plans to formulate a fix or to develop a conversion device it's customers may purchase to remedy the situation. And they told me this knowing that their current $4,000 flagship receiver that they are selling, the VSX-59TXi, is NOT HDMI-Compliant either! Now, I do not want to blame Pioneer here, as I happen to love the receiver I have from them currently. But, I suspect there will be a litany of people in the same boat as I, regardless of what brands they own. And most of them don't even know it yet! This could affect several million people. I am sure many of you have known about this for quite some time and have wisely avoided buying any equipment for that reason. Well, 3 years ago when I bought my equipment, none of us had even an inkling that this might happen. Had I know then, I too would have held off. My pockets are not deep enough to buy new equipment every three years. So that is why I am upset about this. And I think the industry should provide a work around that we can purchase for a reasonable price. If not, DVD-HD & Blu Ray Laser may be getting off to a much rockier start that they first thought. You can't screw several million customers without someone getting pretty darn pissed about it. -Glenn Glenn, What about those people who bought HD Displays with DVI that are not HDCP compliant? You nailed it right on the head. It is the movie industry\content providers that uses their heavy hand to decide matter of factly what will and will not be allowed by audio\video manufacturers. Ironicallly, it is Microsoft that developed the content protection specification which was initially written in 2003. It is the HDCP protocol that is driving the digital control, making component connections unsecure in the eyes of the movie industry. Here is a link that does a great job explaining the situation. http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_11_4/feature-dvi-hdmi-hdcp-connections-11-2004.html I wish I had something positive to say other than the fact that HD display prices are dropping like rocks. US$1600 will get you a good 720p HD front projector! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
picky Posted January 13, 2006 Author Share Posted January 13, 2006 What about those people who bought HD Displays with DVI that are not HDCP compliant? I wish I had something positive to say other than the fact that HD display prices are dropping like rocks. US$1600 will get you a good 720p HD front projector! Yes HDCP is the real culprit. I guess that would leave non-HDCP DVI users out in the cold, too. Good point. Yeah, $1,600 WILL get you a good 720p HD projector. But, I already have a GREAT 720p projector. It just doesn't have the right friggin' plug on it! [+o(] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
picky Posted January 13, 2006 Author Share Posted January 13, 2006 My favorite example is that of our wonderful telephone system (the land lines, NOT cell phones). It is a system that even to this day is being improved upon, yet it's still the same old fashioned design and even has a nearly 100% uptime - it's even more reliable than our electricity. And the whole reason is because the engineers back in the day over-engineered the medium so that improvements in manufacturing would yield improvements in the specific products. Dr. Who: while I would agree with most of what you had said (you made many good points), the one slight flaw I see with your example: The telephone company (Originally Bell Labs) could very well afford to over-engineer its equipment, because it was originally a Public Utility, not a retail manufacturing company. They had endless resources including the Federal government. Assumably, in return for their help, the Feds also probably imposed certain demands or requirements on the design, so they could take command of it in case of an act of war, with relative confidence that there would be few failures. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Petrol Posted January 13, 2006 Share Posted January 13, 2006 dang... you went and got me pissed off too. I'm just as sure that the prirates will have the movie makers copywrite protection efforts thwarted before the first player even hits the market I want my HDV!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cal Blacksmith Posted January 13, 2006 Share Posted January 13, 2006 After reading the link about HDCP I was a bit concerned as our 6 month old projector only has DVI-D single connection for digital. We are using composite at the moment due to the somewhat longish run that the DVI cable would need, about 25 feet. A quick look at the specs for our PJ and now I know it is DHCP compatible, so that is a little relief but they are sure to do something to mess that up in the future, I just know it[:@] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cjgeraci Posted January 13, 2006 Share Posted January 13, 2006 I will wait.... I am sure someone will make a upscaler or some device that will output over analog.... I would not bet on it from here on out. As was mentioned earlier, some of the first generation upscalers worked over component. The beginning of last year I was lucky enough to purchase a Zenith 318 DVD player that upscales over component cables (and does it better than its DVI output). Unfortunately, Zenith is one of many manufacturers that belong to a consortium that frowned on the idea (for the reasons stated - pirates, arrgh!!). After much pressure, Zenith caved. By the summer of last year, new 318s went out the door - upscaling by DVI only. I doubt that any manufacturer would again try to put out another upscaler that does it via component. Carl. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
picky Posted January 13, 2006 Author Share Posted January 13, 2006 There is one, sole DVD player that still up-coverts to Component Video: The NeuNeo HVD2085 1080p Upconverting DVD Player. It even outputs 1080p via component video! But critics believe that the movie companies will force the manufacurer to take it off the market soon. It is capable, according to THIS article in Home Theater Magazine of upconverting Standard DVDs to HD resolution!!! Amazing unit and only $245!!! And it doesn't care about HDCP either! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hillbilly Posted January 13, 2006 Share Posted January 13, 2006 That p-d me off too when I saw the HD-DVD would not have component out. My tv is new, but it was cheap so no digital inputs. I probably will avoid new players/movies until they get this straight. Question, how can you get 1080p from standard dvd's? I thought dvd's were 480p. I thought there wasn't even enough room on a dvd 9 for an HD movie. Where do the other 600 lines come from? Can't get something from nothing. Is it software magic? That player sounds too good to be true. (If it's true then I want one...[]) It's be a good thing to have until HD-DVD gets a clue. I'm not replacing my tv. I just got it and it looks fine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sfogg Posted January 13, 2006 Share Posted January 13, 2006 "Question, how can you get 1080p from standard dvd's? I thought dvd's were 480p." DVDs are 480i. The players just deinterlace then scale the video. Almost any digital projector will do this too if you feed it 480i the projector will convert the video to its native rate. "Where do the other 600 lines come from? Can't get something from nothing. " Scaling. Basically adding additional lines to the signal that 'fit in' between the existing data. The end result is *not* the same thing as actually starting off with a 1080p source. Shawn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
picky Posted January 13, 2006 Author Share Posted January 13, 2006 sfogg: Thanks for the "fancy footwork", Shawn. Good job! [] hillbilly: Please read that article in the link. I found it quite interesting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hillbilly Posted January 13, 2006 Share Posted January 13, 2006 I read the article. That's where I formed my questions. Next question. My CRT-RPTV will do 1080i. Is scaling worth it? I just got into the video thing recently. I have just in the past few months been assimilating all the HD stuff and different kinds of displays like a big sponge. I either never heard of or never payed any attention to scaling until today. [] I'll listen to anybody who'll talk about it. Okay not anybody......lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sfogg Posted January 13, 2006 Share Posted January 13, 2006 If your CRT doesn't do any scaling or deinterlacing feeding it a deinterlaced or scaled DVD signal would look better then it running at 480i. Shawn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
picky Posted January 14, 2006 Author Share Posted January 14, 2006 One of the worst things about this whole thing is that this cycle of change is not going to stop after the dust clears from the battle between Blu-ray and DVD-HD. That's just the beginng. For example: In my new copy of the February Issue of 'Sound and Vision Magazine' (page 70) they discuss emerging Tech. It would seem that Blu-ray and DVD-HD already have a worry of their own: HVD (Holographic Versatile Disc) is only one year from launch (2007). HVD discs are capable of storing 1 terrabyte (1,000 gigs) of information, which easily trumps the other two formats. That amounts to 80 hours of HDTV! HVD apparently uses two lasers; a red that reads tracking information on a second layer and a green that reads holograhically encoded data on the disc's recording layer. With that said, if we all do as we say here and just enjoy our beloved, standard DVDs a few more years, perhaps both the DVD-HD and Blu-ray Disc formats will fall to the wayside just as the SACD and DVD-Audio formats seem to be? Heh, I almost feel better about this now. RENVENGE!! "DIE B$STARDS, DIE!!" [] [] tkot: Jay, nice web site (http://tkohd.com). It would appear that you and I are running nearly identical businesses on the side. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrWho Posted January 14, 2006 Share Posted January 14, 2006 My goodness they just keep coming out with more and more mediums! One thing I would love to see is a trend back to the floppy disk/mini disk approach where the disk is stored inside a square protective casing. It would work wonders for the longevity of the medium and greatly reduce the annoyances associated with trying to back up your media. Btw, what is the bandwidth and speed of the HVD? 1 TB of information isn't very useful if you can't get a lot of data off quickly (which would be required for it to be effective with movies). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
picky Posted January 14, 2006 Author Share Posted January 14, 2006 DrWho: Right on, Bro! minidisc caught on like wildfire over in Europe and it's still very popular there. Here in the US, on a consumer level, it just sort of fizzled for a couple of "weekends" and then, right into the crapper. On a professional level, they are extremely usefull. We use them at our dubbing studio like crazy and I still use them to run our dance recital show soundtracks. They are also great for musicians. Wonderful tool! Good point about HVD. They did not supply any bandwidth information in the article. They did mention that it's being developed in Japan by Optware and they have backing from Toshiba. Here is a link to Optware. The link states a speed of one gigabyte per second: 40 times the speed of DVD! HOLY CRAP! THIS IS MY 2,000th POST!!!!! HOORAY!!!!! [] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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