westcott Posted January 14, 2006 Share Posted January 14, 2006 My goodness they just keep coming out with more and more mediums! One thing I would love to see is a trend back to the floppy disk/mini disk approach where the disk is stored inside a square protective casing. It would work wonders for the longevity of the medium and greatly reduce the annoyances associated with trying to back up your media. Btw, what is the bandwidth and speed of the HVD? 1 TB of information isn't very useful if you can't get a lot of data off quickly (which would be required for it to be effective with movies). What I think we should all be concerned with is that all content will be downloadable ONLY!!!!!! Microsoft would love that. Now, on the face of it, that may not sound bad but if you look at the bandwidth numbers being quoted for some of this HD content, you quickly realize what will happen if downloading via the net is the only option for these massive file sizes. Video and audio compression really is the achilles heal to all of these formats and what kills what available resolution there is. Worse yet, the government has no clue and does not impose limits on content providers. I am terribly afraid that in the name of content protection, we will all be watching MP3 versions of HD material. The studios would love to eliminate all of the middle men and the overhead associated with supporting them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JJkizak Posted January 14, 2006 Share Posted January 14, 2006 One of the things that failed to be touched here is the absolutely huge difference in quality (resolution) from 720P to 1080P. If you see a 1080P and you just bought a 720P you will be pissed. JJK Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westcott Posted January 14, 2006 Share Posted January 14, 2006 One of the things that failed to be touched here is the absolutely huge difference in quality (resolution) from 720P to 1080P. If you see a 1080P and you just bought a 720P you will be pissed. JJK I think you have to be careful about what technologies you are comparing. Front projection has the most to gain from higher resolution due the higher screen sizes (100+) and some are saying it is not that dramatic considering the cost premium and lack of 1080p source material. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rockbobmel Posted January 14, 2006 Share Posted January 14, 2006 Picky, I am also outraged about the movie companies whining about copyrights.!! Think of it this way; 1st the company releases a movie in the theaters. 2nd they release it on VHS (back then). 3rd, they release it on DVD, 4th they release it with remastered formats, 5th, they release a director's cut version. 6th they release a widescreen version......... on and on ad infinitum.... They are making money over and over again on the same copyrighted material. They are pirating their OWN material.!!! WTF!!! I'm sick of it.!!! Let us have and copy anything... If I wanted to keep a movie, I'll buy it on original. Who wants to have a big library of movies that they already saw..?? If you really need to see it again, rent it on netflix.[:@] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cjgeraci Posted January 15, 2006 Share Posted January 15, 2006 One of the things that failed to be touched here is the absolutely huge difference in quality (resolution) from 720P to 1080P. If you see a 1080P and you just bought a 720P you will be pissed. JJK Yes, but I would not cry too hard if I was a 720P owner. Probably just hold the owner over until the next round of changes.Don't you think you would also be pissed if you were mesmerized by the 1080P pic and bought a 1080P set (that simply upscales a 1080i signal) only to realize that the set does not accept 1080P inputs. Once true 1080p comes out - you simply have a fancy upscaler instead of a set that receives native 1080p? Sounds like it is better to wait for the real thing - the next generation of true 1080p sets that will accept 1080p inputs. Carl. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
picky Posted January 15, 2006 Author Share Posted January 15, 2006 Sounds like it is better to wait for the real thing - the next generation of true 1080p sets that will accept 1080p inputs. Carl. cjgeraci: Carl, I completey agree. And the connections are one thing I touched upon earlier relative to 1080p. They are already talking about upgrading the HDMI connection standard from version 1.2 to 1.3 in order to accept the newer audio codecs emerging from Dolby and others. I suspect "something else" will have to be developed in order to carry the increased bandwidth that will be required to carry 1080p. The same goes for the 1 gig per second bandwidth of HVD, which I also mentioned earlier. BTW: Dolby is also coming out with Dolby Digital Plus (a 7.1-capable format) and Dolby True HD which I think has a 10-channel capability. DTS is coming out with DTS-HD. It is expected that these new codecs will be baked-into the new players. I hate to admit it, but things are really starting to look like our hobby of HT will eventually require us to all abandon our table-top boxes and instead incorporate our PCs into our system chain without choice. Just as westcott said: Mircosoft would love it is we all went to HTPCs and began downloading "MP3" versions of movies (probably something like DivX) that is compressed and stored on our "media server" hard drive. The reason I say this is the only way I could imagine anyone being able to keep up with the litany of changes occuring is to be able to directly download firmware upgrades and swap our PCI cards (that contain new connection standards) in order to stay current without literally going broke. I have a high regard for those of you out there already using HTPCs. But, that is not the direction I orginally wished to go. As others have suggested, it's as it our fate is being decided for us by the content providers, not only regarding the software, but now it's becoming more clear that they are also driving our hardware choices as well. Like westcott, I too do not want to be forced into having no choice but to listen and watch an "MP3-esque" version of the content. The trouble here is that we, as hobbyists, are greatly out-numbered. As demostrated by the Beta-VHS controversy (the 6-hour VHS format won out over the 4-hour Beta format despite poorer picture quality): The public tends to take the more-is-better tact, rather than the quality-is-preferable tact. When given the choice of buying a $35-dollar Blu-ray Disc high-definition version of 'Master and Comander' (for example), the public will most-likely choose the $4.99 downloadable-version that can be stored directly on their home computer. Forget the fact that the format offered is so compressed that the video and audio suffer greatly. And why do they not care? That's simple: They haven't spent the money it takes in order to buy the equipment necessary to exploit the merits of playing the movie on a system worthy of spending $35 dollars for one movie. Instead, they revel in the fact that for $35 they can collect 7 movies to our one. So, who are the real fools here? As usual, we who seek the highest quality lose out due to sheer lack of numbers. The only way I see use being able to download an HVD movie over broadband is if something miraculous happens in the next couple of years and the Super-Internet (or, Internet 2), which they have been touting for the last seven years, finally comes to fruition. rockbobmel: I share your frustration on your point about copyrights and the content providers' ability to continually turn a profit by "re-pirating" their own software. Good point! "If it looks like dog poo, and it smells like dog poo,........" -Glenn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rockbobmel Posted January 15, 2006 Share Posted January 15, 2006 Is this true? If so, why have two different formats? 1080 interlaced... 1080 lines verticle interlaced.... odd and even scanning... 60fps (frames or fields per second) 1080i - one field is 540 lines even line numbers scanned and then - one field of 540 odd line numbers scanned. 1080 progressive.... same 1080 lines vertical. progressive.... entire field scanning - all 1080 lines scanned together... 30 fps (field or frames in this instance - because of entire field scan) 1080p - all 1080 lines odd and even but in order top to bottom at once. No even then odd thing going on. 1080i 60 fps 540 lines scanned in 1/60th of a second... 1080p 30 fps 1080 lines scanned in 1/30th of a second... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westcott Posted January 15, 2006 Share Posted January 15, 2006 Is this true? If so, why have two different formats? 1080 interlaced... 1080 lines verticle interlaced.... odd and even scanning... 60fps (frames or fields per second) 1080i - one field is 540 lines even line numbers scanned and then - one field of 540 odd line numbers scanned. 1080 progressive.... same 1080 lines vertical. progressive.... entire field scanning - all 1080 lines scanned together... 30 fps (field or frames in this instance - because of entire field scan) 1080p - all 1080 lines odd and even but in order top to bottom at once. No even then odd thing going on. 1080i 60 fps 540 lines scanned in 1/60th of a second... 1080p 30 fps 1080 lines scanned in 1/30th of a second... Here is a link I think you will find interesting. http://www.tvtechnology.com/features/Tech-Corner/f_randy_hoffner.shtml I think all the marketing groups are taking lessons from Bose!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry1 Posted January 15, 2006 Share Posted January 15, 2006 Here is a link I think you will find interesting. http://www.tvtechnology.com/features/Tech-Corner/f_randy_hoffner.shtml I think all the marketing groups are taking lessons from Bose!!!! Nice article! The last comment of the article says it all. "In sum, the resolution capabilities of advanced displays have caught up to the resolution of the 1920 x 1080/60p HD scanning format, but it will be a while before there is much native 1080/60p material available for viewing." So I think you should just buy what you need, not get caught up in the HD marketing blitz that claims 1080P is here when the number of true HD movies is so few, and the 1080P HD input/output standards are not quite here. All the various new DTS/Dolby codecs that are coming also ticks me off. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westcott Posted January 16, 2006 Share Posted January 16, 2006 Here is a link I think you will find interesting. http://www.tvtechnology.com/features/Tech-Corner/f_randy_hoffner.shtml I think all the marketing groups are taking lessons from Bose!!!! Nice article! The last comment of the article says it all. "In sum, the resolution capabilities of advanced displays have caught up to the resolution of the 1920 x 1080/60p HD scanning format, but it will be a while before there is much native 1080/60p material available for viewing." So I think you should just buy what you need, not get caught up in the HD marketing blitz that claims 1080P is here when the number of true HD movies is so few, and the 1080P HD input/output standards are not quite here. All the various new DTS/Dolby codecs that are coming also ticks me off. If you really want to stir the pot, lets discuss at what screen size does a 1080p picture start to make sense, should you be able to acquire content at this native resolution. From some recent reports back from CES, there is not much advantage in picutre quality, even in screen sizes at 100" or more over current HD content and displays!!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cal Blacksmith Posted January 16, 2006 Share Posted January 16, 2006 We are running a 720p front pj on a 100" screen and it looks like film, well nearly, though we have great contrast the blackest blacks are a little lacking. I can adjust the values to make them black but then the over all picture is a little darker than I like. When Dish comes out with a low cost HD receiver, we will get it, until then it is standard resolution. The PC upscales very nicely and our DVD playback is very acceptable. I suppose HD will look even nicer but till that happens, we are quite happy with our movies.[] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westcott Posted January 16, 2006 Share Posted January 16, 2006 I would suggest getting an Over The Air antenna for your local channels when you buy your HD box. The quality in my area is superb and better than the signal from Directv. When you do get your HD system, they will have to wire your mouth shut. Live sports and Leno are simply amazing! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sfogg Posted January 16, 2006 Share Posted January 16, 2006 "From some recent reports back from CES, there is not much advantage in picutre quality, even in screen sizes at 100" or more over current HD content and displays!!!!!" All depends upon the viewing angle. From 400"s back someone likely couldn't tell the difference between a 1080p display and a 720p display. If however you sit one screen width away the differences are going to be much more noticeable. Shawn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westcott Posted January 16, 2006 Share Posted January 16, 2006 "From some recent reports back from CES, there is not much advantage in picutre quality, even in screen sizes at 100" or more over current HD content and displays!!!!!" All depends upon the viewing angle. From 400"s back someone likely couldn't tell the difference between a 1080p display and a 720p display. If however you sit one screen width away the differences are going to be much more noticeable. Shawn A quote from Evan Marshall from Projector Central. Sharp gave a great demonstration of their new Z20000 1080p model. They showed it with three different sources--a pristine 1080p source, Blu-ray 1080i DVD, and conventional 480i component video. Three distinct levels of image quality were obvious. The 1080p source was exquisite, and showed the true potential of the projector. Blu-ray DVD looked very good, but it was clearly a step down. It is definitely better than standard DVD, but it falls short of the best possible high resolution sources. The image quality with Blu-ray on this particular 1080p projector was not much different than that which is available on the better 720p projectors on the market today. It will be interesting to see how consumers respond to what is shaping up to be an enormous price gap between 720p and 1080p. For example, the newly announced Optoma HD72 (1280x768), is a DLP projector rated a 1300 ANSI lumens and 5000:1 contrast. It features the new BrilliantColor technology from TI, and it will sell at street prices of just $2,000 this spring. Will typical broadcast HDTV look noticeably more "high-def" on a $20,000 1080p projector than it will on this $2,000 unit? Probably not. In fact it is possible that the HDTV 720p broadcasts from ABC, Fox, and ESPN (which constitute the vast majority of HD sports programming) will look a bit clearer and sharper on the HD72 due to display of the signal in native format. Certainly standard television and current DVD formats will not look much better on 1080p displays than they already do on 720p. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sfogg Posted January 16, 2006 Share Posted January 16, 2006 So? It makes no mention of seating distance. Sit far enough back and some probably couldn't tell the difference between 480 and 720p too... does that mean 480o is the 'right' choice for everyone? For those that like immersion in their pictures and sit close to the screen the difference will be obvious. Even just by looking at screen door or not. Most 720p displays have a recommended seating distance of about 1.5x screen width to avoid screen door. (Exceptions are 'smooth screen' models like the Panasonics which intentionally blur the picture slightly to hide screen door) I'm sitting 1x away at 1365x1024 and have no screen door at all. 1920x1080 is only going to be better yet. Shawn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry1 Posted January 16, 2006 Share Posted January 16, 2006 if you really want to stir the pot, lets discuss at what screen size does a 1080p picture start to make sense, should you be able to acquire content at this native resolution. From some recent reports back from CES, there is not much advantage in picutre quality, even in screen sizes at 100" or more over current HD content and displays!!!!! I can clearly see some improvement in picture quality with 1080P over 720 P displays for > 46" displays, but we know that some 720P displays have much better picture quality then other 720P displays. Clearly some 720P displays give some 1080P displays a run for their money. But I would still recommend a 1080P display because you are receiving other benefits such as recent improvements in audio and video processing, inputs/outputs, better contrast ratio, better black cababilities, and improvements in the light engine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
formica Posted January 16, 2006 Share Posted January 16, 2006 Besides, everyone knows, six months after it is released, the hackers will have a crack for HDMI anyway. So who are they really hurting? Law-bidding consumers. Unfortunately true... the same thing is happening with copy protected CDs. Several of the CDs I've purchased won't allow me to listen to them on my PC without installing software (which I don't, following Sony's problems with compromised software)... but I can download the songs off the P2P networks. Funny how their protection has me frustrated yet P2P readily sharing. Therefore, the best thing to do is to boycott high def formats till a single format wins. By that time, at least some of us will be ready to upgrade audio and/or video processing. Poor sales will get their attention. I agree... if they feel it's appropriate to punish early adopters... I think we should speak with our money. I'll have to upgrade my pre-pro this year... I might just go out and get a "newer" used one. There is no doubt whatsoever, they are already on the market. I have several myself.... Wouldn't selling those be in violation of the USA's DMCA? ROb PS: BTW, Great rant Glen...[] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sfogg Posted January 16, 2006 Share Posted January 16, 2006 "Wouldn't selling those be in violation of the USA's DMCA? " Maybe, though as far as I know they use the actual HDCP decoding chips that everyone else uses so there was no reverse engineering (what the DMCA is supposed to 'protect' against) done in them. And of course companies that sell it outside of the USA aren't bound by the DMCA. I was in the same boat... my projector is analog in only. I didn't want to possibly not have the ability to watch legally purchased HD-DVD+BR-DVDs... so I purchased these... just in case. *RANT* The DMCA is a law passed by those that have no clue what they actually passed. Did you hear the case about the printer company suing an aftermarket toner cartridge maker over DMCA violations? That is just plain insane. *End RANT* Shawn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kenratboy Posted January 17, 2006 Share Posted January 17, 2006 You expect Pioneer and Sharp to come up with some magic box to fix a non-exsistant problem? The products work fine, and when they came out, these issues were non-exsistant. You should know better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
formica Posted January 17, 2006 Share Posted January 17, 2006 The DMCA is a law passed by those that have no clue what they actually passed. Did you hear the case about the printer company suing an aftermarket toner cartridge maker over DMCA violations? That is just plain insane. Yeah, and I can't believe the same lobbyists are hard at work trying to ruin it for us Canadians as well. ROb PS: BTW, I believe the printer company did loose in the end. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.