"Digital ... don't got no balls!!!."

[3dzapper]

"No, the phase change is in the CD itself. Surely you don't think the CD tells the player to put a capacitor in the signal path?"

Don't be ridiculous. Phase inversion can be simulated with one capacitor in one channel in the recording process.

You missed the point I was making. You may well be able to reproduce a sine wave at my 15K. However the point I was making was the low sampling rate in all probability miss a 2nd harmonic in reverse phase heterodyning for a portion of that wavelength. Effectively a warble in the 15K wave at 30K rate. (It could just as well be a forth harmonic of 6KHz.)

I have proved previously that analog disks are capable of storing information to at least 45KHz. Since all the information on the master recording is cut into the LP (lacking a low pass filter), that spatial information will be on the LP. Because of the low pass filter in a CD playback circuit to eliminate interference of the sample frequency and the randomness of the sample, it can not be on the CD.

http://www.stereophile.com/reference/404metrics/index2.html

Rick

[PrestonTom]

Gee, I can't believe the things I am reading.

1. You don't really believe that you are going to "effectively" get a 45kHz bandwidth from vinyl do you?

2. The spatial information is not "up above 15 kHz" . It is across the entire bandwidth. For localization in the horizontal plane the low frequencies are especially important. For vertical plane localization, then higher frequency content is important, but it is not all up at 15 kHz. Doesn't matter since most of the vertical dimension is lost in stereophonic recording. Besides most males in an industrialized society suffer some (or much) high frequency loss.

3. The ambiance (difficult to define specifically), if it is in the original recording, then it does not require inter channel phase shifts. There are however some illusory effects if phase is played with. In my mind, the ambiance is in the recirding and due to the venue. This will be reproduced, unless the engineer has messed things up.

4. With true stereophony, where 2 mics are used to encode (unfortunately, this is not typically done in studio recordings) and two speakers to reproduce, the resulting waveform at the ears (in your living room) is remarkably close to what would be found with actual sources (instruments) playing at those same locations in your living room. No "phase incoherence" is required (incidentally some of you are using this term incorrectly, so I got confused at first). This effect was termed "stereophony" by Ben Bauer back in the late 50s. There was (and continues to be) a good quantitative analysis of this. It really is simple physics and does not require exotic explanations.

Good Luck,

-Tom

[DrWho]

You missed the point I was making. You may

well be able to reproduce a sine wave at my 15K. However the point I

was making was the low sampling rate in all probability miss a 2nd

harmonic in reverse phase heterodyning for a portion of that

wavelength. Effectively a warble in the 15K wave at 30K rate. (It could

just as well be a forth harmonic of 6KHz.)

What is this 30kHz warble to which you refer? As in, where is it coming

from...though it really doesn't matter because our ears certainly don't

work up to 30kHz so this warble would be completely inaudible (in other

words, our ears couldn't tell if the warble was or wasn't there).

And if you're really that worried about 45kHz, then go get yourself a

24/192 system (which would limit your highest frequency to 96kHz).

[Travis In Austin]

"What does the vinyl "do right" that analog tape doesn't do right? The reason I ask is because my experience with high end reel to reel still doesn't always better mediocre digital."

Dr. Who, the big difference is going to be the speed of the tape, it needs to be 7.5 IPS and who recorded the tape for the record label. Ampex, Bell and Howell and some others produced excellent quality prerecorded tapes which will be superior to vinyl because they were recorded straight from the two track master. On the other hand, a 3.75 IPS prerecorded tape from columbia record club is going to sound like garbage because it is a 4th maybe 5th generation copy. The 7.5 has double the S/N ratio of the slower speed. The right prerecorded tape on the right tape player will sound superior to the vinyl because the limitations of the cutting lathe and eventually the cartridge/needle obviously do not apply to tape.

Home analog 1/2" tape players are in no way the equivelant of studio 1" mastering recorders. The magnetic gap might be different, the tracks narrower, the saturation levels lower, the speed slower. The more tracks that were put on a home recorder the lower the ultimate fidelity. A unidirectional 1/2" machine has two tracks nearly 1/4" wide ( broadcast standard), 4 track bi-directional stereo 1/8", a quad track stereo bi-directional has 1/16" tracks about the same as an audio cassette. It's only advantage is tape speed."

3D, you are close but a little off on the sizes, but you are correct about the fact that two track has wider tracks resulting in higher quality reproduction. Home analog is 1/4", studio recorders are 1/2", 1" or 2". The broadcast standard is 1/4" two track, with two tracks nearly 1/8" wide, 4 track home R2R is about 1/16" per track, but is far superior to audio cassette which has tracks smaller then 1/32".

Vinyl and remixed CDs are taken from the wide fast master tape. Most likely on a 30"/sec machine with 8 1/4" tracks and narrow highly saturated magnetic gaps."

Not quite but close. Regardless of the number of tracks used on the studio recording, that tapes was "Mastered" onto a 2 track 1/4" tape at 15 or 30 IPS, almost allways Ampex 456 or 499. That two track tape is then sent to be used with the cutting lathe or to the company that will make the prerecorded reel to reels. A stereo lathe can only accept two tracks (left and right) same with the precorded tape facility. This is the whole reason for mastering, ensuring that the music is going to work with the lathe, be within the RIAA curve, etc. You will see on just about every lp, recorded at _________ Studio, and then mastered at __________.

Travis

[sfogg]

"Don't be ridiculous. Phase inversion can be simulated with one capacitor in one channel in the recording process."

You claimed CD couldn't reproduce phase. Now you say they could

'simulate' phase inversion but then use a CD to deliver that phase

inversion?

If a CD can deliver the phase inversion then it can reproduce phase so I don't understand what you are trying to say.

" However the point I was making was the low sampling rate in all probability miss a 2nd harmonic"

The second harmonic of a 15kHz wave... of course it would miss that

30kHz wave itself. It is beyond the ability of the system to capture it.

You think you can hear a 30kHz wave?

If you mean the modulation of a wave in the audible frequency by a wave above the limits of CD then see the example below.

The attached is a WAV file that is a single channel 16bit recording

running at a sample rate of 22.5kHz. This means the recording can have

a maximum FR of just under 11,250 hz.

I recorded this using the built in mic in my Mac. The start of the

recording is a 9kHz tone from another machine using its left speaker. I

then play a 14kHz tone on that other machine (on the right speaker)

while this recording was being made. 14kHz is above the frequency that

can be captured with a 22.5kHz sampling rate.

If what you claimed about hetrodyning (beat frequencies for everyone

else) was correct the 9kHz tone shouldn't be altered at all since the

14kHz tone is above the sampling rate of this recording.

So the obvious question for everyone.... does the sound of this 9kHz

tone change when the frequency above the cutoff frequency is introduced

during the original recording?

Shawn

NOTE: Forum doesn't allow .WAV extensions so I named the file .TXT....

change the extension from .TXT back to .WAV to play the file.

AudioRecording.txt

[ben.]

"And so it goes, and so it goes, and so it goes, and so it goes. But where it's

goin' no one knows..."

Nick Lowe

[3dzapper]

Remember that 15K number is not literal. It was an arbitrary figure pulled from thin air. It could be any number.

Shawn 9 and 14 have no relationship. Try 9 and 18 from the same source with their associated harmonics added. The first harmonic of 9 is 18, the first sub-harmonic of 18 is 9. They will heterodyne.

Who, A piano stuck at say 1.5k will produce vibrations at harmonics from the string, the frame and the sound board each in a different phase because of different size, distance and density. That is what makes a grand piano sound different from a spinette. Some of these phase differences are additive, some subtractive and some will beat in heterodyne. That is the "voice" of the instrument. Same with guitars or violins. (or loudspeakers)

The point is that no matter what, the infinite number of points captured in analog will be more accurate than the limited sampling of digitized.

Look again at those graphs I linked to at Stereophile. They show the difference in stored information from the various digital formats sample rates.

Tom, Effectively? No. I certainlately can't hear up there but it is possible to have energy there. Certainly there is the capacity to go over 20K. My "inexpensive" cartridge has a frequency range from 20-40KHz , response is flat from 20-20.

Rick

Hey Ben, Leave me alone here. I'm having fun with the 1s and 0s bunch. The truth be known, I listen to digital 95% of the time between Cable and the few CDs I own. For critical listening.......

Travis, You're right I kinda doubled everything.[:$]

[ben.]

http://www.cco.caltech.edu/~boyk/spectra/spectra.htm

Hearing and sensing are not mutually inclusive. Ask Tannoy why they do well with their Ellipse series.

[sfogg]

"Shawn 9 and 14 have no relationship. "

You mean you don't hear the beat frequency (heterodyne) between the two

waves in the recording? Even though one of the waves is above the

limits of the capture the heterodyne is still captured.

"ry 9 and 18 from the same source with their associated harmonics

added. The first harmonic of 9 is 18, the first sub-harmonic of 18 is

9. They will heterodyne."

The attached is 8k and 16k with a 22.5kHz sampling rate again reproduced by two different speakers.

"the infinite number of points captured in analog"

Infinite number of points implies infinite FR which of course vinyl

doesn't have. Vinyl can't cover 20hz to 20kHz without *massive* amounts

of EQ.

"will be more accurate than the limited sampling of digitized."

By any objective definition of accuracy vinyl is less accurate then

digital. Worse SN (resolution), worse phase response, worse FR (below

22kHz), worse channel separation, more distortion...etc...etc...

Because you prefer the sound makes no difference to the accuracy (defined as what goes in is what comes out) of the source.

It always gets back to the old audiophile fallacy of "if I like it it must be because it is more accurate."

'Higher resolution' sources isn't going to get it done for you. Vinyl

lovers don't want accuracy, they want the coloration's of vinyl that

they find pleasing and add to their enjoyment of the music. When those

aren't there they miss them.

"Not that there is anything wrong with that!" (And I mean that, it is after all personal preference)

Shawn

(NOTE: Rename this .TXT file to .WAV to play it......)

8k-16k.txt

[3dzapper]

"It always gets back to the old audiophile fallacy of 'if I like it it must be because it is more accurate.' "

That's right. You're entitled to think your's is better.[]

Rick

Edit: Something just hit me like a ton of bricks! When I refered to heterodyning before, I meant "zero beat". phase cancelling by like frequencies. [:$]

I have another confession, I listen to digital sources on my Belles with a subwoofer and a pentode amp. i'm going to burn.[6]

[Erik Mandaville]

Shawn:

"Vinyl lovers don't want accuracy, they want the coloration's of vinyl that they find pleasing and add to their enjoyment of the music. When those aren't there they miss them."

A statement I think also applies to every single aspect of the music machinery we choose for our systems, from single components (where those are easy enough to access and change as needed or desired), to entire organizations of parts in the form of individual source and amplification devices, to the integration of those devices into systems.

Erik

[JJkizak]

I remember in the old days when Columbia Records re-engineered their systems to provide a nicer, more silky type sound on the vinyl stuff. They still could not pump up the bass though because of the restrictions of space between grooves. Maybe they should have made the record 1/2" thick and gone up and down to make the groove wider. Just think of all the nuances that could be put into that size groove. (10.1 Dolby)

JJK

[sfogg]

Rick,

" When I refered to heterodyning before, I meant "zero beat". phase cancelling by like frequencies."

Listen to the 8k-16k recording a few times carefully. Before you start hearing additions you hear cancelations from the two frequencies interacting.

Erik,

"A statement I think also applies to every single aspect of the music machinery we choose for our systems, from single components (where those are easy enough to access and change as needed or desired)"

Yup. Every choice in one way or another is 'processing' the signal in ways the listener prefers.

Shawn

[sfogg]

JJK<

"They still could not pump up the bass though because of the restrictions of space between grooves."

Mistracking problems in the bass is part of what the RIAA curve helps to work around. The other thing that is very often done is mixing the bass down to mono on vinyl as that improves tracking.

Shawn

[garymd]

Just when this thread was becoming entertaining, you guys had to get all technical on me.[:^)]