mobile homeless Posted November 1, 2001 Share Posted November 1, 2001 As you are someone that basically feels that wire differences are mostly of the placebo variety, I dont see how I can really put much faith in this comment about the ADCOM vs the other amps, that is, without you giving some form of comparison beyond a sentence stating your have "heard other amps" which is on par with the specifics of most of the anti-tube brigade within the Klipsch forums. What amps have you had in your system for any length of time that you feel the ADCOM bests? I am talking any of the amps I listed in the above thread. The reason I have become rather disgruntled is that I have not seen these type of responses in years, responses were people make rather blanket statements concerning quality without apparantly having the products in comparison either in home or under any sort of extensive audition. The fact that many within the confines of these forums are still debating whether "wire" makes any sonic difference is hard to believe in and of itself. Anyone here has a standing invitation (with some advance notice) to drop by my abode so I can demonstrate the differences in various types and costructs of cable is welcome. At the same time, perhaps we can go borrow my friend's Adcom GFA-555 and compare it to a McCormick DNA .5 or a Forte 4 or even a B&K ST-202 and see some of the sonic differences I have been discussing. Indeed, I would love to have a listening session with a 1959 EICO HF-81 that cost me $100 up against the Adcom of your choice, whether it be MOSFET or Bipolar. And for the final nut, I would REALLY love to plop down anyones 200w solid state power house from ADCOM to Bryston and see how it compares to my 3.5wpc Welborne Labs Moondogs on these 1977 Cornwalls. I am up for the challenge with some advance warning. I have done this before with people that dont give a hoot about stereos or even know the difference between a triode and a transistor...and the results have almost always been the same. Bring it on, Tex!...heh... khf>s> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Lindsey Posted November 1, 2001 Share Posted November 1, 2001 Mobile, Aren't we a little snooty today!? I have been reading your posts with great interest as you no doubt have a lot of experience within the "Hi Fi" world of audio equipment. I can tell just from reading you that you sort of look down on Klipsch products because they aren't considered "Hi Fi" amongst the rest of the snobs out there. I guess because 50 year old technology can't be as good as what's being manufactured today. When someone doesn't seem to agree with you, why is it you have to attack the whole board? Now, I have not heard Adcom, Bryston, Krell or any of the other amps that were mentioned in this thread but maybe some of the others have, and maybe, just maybe...they like the Adcom better! You on the other hand prefer the other brands. That's fine... it's just your opinion (and maybe 10,000 others as well)... but that's not the point. I just think you like rubbing our faces in it a little bit as you look down on us. People on this Forum like Klipsch speakers! We have all tried other speakers and have always come back to the sound that "we" like most... Horns! It's hard for people in the "Hi Fi" world to understand this. I think one of the reasons is because it doesn't take a $5000 amp to drive our speakers. Hence the Denon's, Yamaha's and Adcom's of the world will do just fine, thank you. I read your posts on the Asylum board and in my opinion, it really pained you to get those Cornwalls. You weren't sure how all your other snobby friends would look at you if you bought them. Now that you have them, I'm sure you're enjoying them as much as we enjoy our own (still looking forward to your review, btw). Now, this is just "my opinion" and I certainly don't want to start a flame-war but I think you could lighten up just a bit. Your opinion is fine but youre not the final word on all things audio. This board is a rather civil one with very little name-calling and even fewer trolls. I for one, would like to keep it that way... Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobile homeless Posted November 1, 2001 Share Posted November 1, 2001 Yeah, perhaps I have been in a sour mood today. But it's post like yours that keep me there. Snooty? That is why I listen to a $100 1959 tube amp right along side those Welborne Moondogs? That is why I discuss spending 75 cents on some RS solid core wire as it betters my $900 Transparent wires via the SET amps? That is why I waste 45 minutes trying to discuss good value solid state amps, amps I dont even really listen to much anymore but still appreciate...all to help a fellow music lover? That is why I wasted another 50 minutes this morn helping a fellow Klipsch forum member get his system posted on his server space when I charge $65 an hour to do same? That is why I drove over 12 hours to pick up a pair of 25 year old speakers to audition next to a pair of 6500 Silverline Sonatas and all with an open mind? That is why those $600 speakers using 25 year old technology from a company that sold out half its soul is sitting in my living room, playing music as I type? I am the LAST person one would call an audio snob, my friend. I LISTEN to music. Give me a break. Is anyone here held accountable for anything they say? kh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobile homeless Posted November 1, 2001 Share Posted November 1, 2001 As you can see, today isnt a good day here...heh.. My apologies. I am usually quite civil in ye olde Klipsch forum. Perhaps I shouldnt have had all that cough syrup.... kh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Lindsey Posted November 1, 2001 Share Posted November 1, 2001 I might have been a bit harsh with the "snob" remarks and YES, I hold myself accountable for what I say. Maybe I'm having a bad day myself and just woke up on the wrong side of bed (I work out of the house as well). It's just sometimes you come off sounding like you have a chip on your shoulder regarding all things Klipsch and it just hit me the wrong way this time. I do enjoy reading your posts as you are certainly more experienced than I in this hobby, and can be an asset to the board. Just keep in mind that not everybody's gonna agree with you all the time. Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobile homeless Posted November 1, 2001 Share Posted November 1, 2001 Well, I guess we both need to apologize. Listen, I am not against all things Klipsch. Obviously, I am quite taken with this pair of speakers here. It is just that I have HEARD a sampling of the Klipsch speakers over the last 10 years and almost all have been disappointing to me. I actually hold the older Klipsch line in a fond light, especially the Cornwall I, which I have come to know quite intimately over the last few weeks. I would hope that anyone on this board could tell that I hold almost no preconceived notions as made in stone and am open to new ideas. I dont think one could own a 3.5w amp, throwing specs to the wind, this after being involved professionally in the audio field since an early age, could be counted as someone snooty and steadfast in the Audiophile brigade. Indeed, I would actually say that I am ANTI audiophile as I find most of this ilk dont really listen or know much about music. Alas, we must all not forget that music is the main focus...and sometimes, we lose that very fact. kh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
discorules Posted November 1, 2001 Share Posted November 1, 2001 Ouch. Instead of cough syrup Mobile, how about a switch to decaf. I've listened to and have had Krell, HK and Scott amps in my system. I have also listened for extended periods to Adcom, Onkyo, Rotel, NAD, McIntosh, Cary, SimAudio and Arcam amps and or receivers just to name some. All of them sounded good. Their differences were minor and a few are over rated at normal listening levels. I even listened to various speaker cables and I don't think that I can say in a double blind test I can reliably distinguish between God's Holy cable at $10000/ft versus Home Depot's 12 gauge. Perhaps you can. I personally prefer HK amps and Home Depot 12 gauge cables. Like Khorn's, they don't resonate with the audiophile crowd but I let my ears make decisions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobile homeless Posted November 1, 2001 Share Posted November 1, 2001 Well, like I have come to accept with James and the imfamous tube debate, we probably disagree on most things in the sonic realm, and that is fine. I have heard most in that list you named and I came to some different conclusions. Some of those within that list sound vastly different from one another. Auditioning a Cary Audio amplifier next to an NAD brings about a whole different slew of adjectives. Just with that example, having owned over five different models of NAD since the mid 70s, I can honestly say they sound nothing like any Cary Audio amp I have had in my possession. The same can be said comparing something like a Krell KSA amp against a Scott tube amp. Once again, they are SO different, in some ways it is harder to find the similarities! Each emphasizes different aspects of the sonic picture and each brings very different emotional reactions. So obviously, we do differ here. As for the speaker wire/interconnect debate, while some differences are very subtle, and one cannot use money as the deciding factor, differences ARE evident, especially in very revealing systems. And while I have heard a few Harmon Kardon amps and actually have an old HK mono tube amp, I have not heard any of their modern components equal even the Rotel. On the other hand, you have more experience listening to this brand. What model of HK do you recommend? kh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
discorules Posted November 1, 2001 Share Posted November 1, 2001 Hey Mobile. Try a HK Signature 2.1 or 1.5 power amp. I haven't heard their newest PA series amps but I suspect they offer similar performance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheEAR Posted November 2, 2001 Share Posted November 2, 2001 "As for the speaker wire/interconnect debate, while some differences are very subtle, and one cannot use money as the deciding factor, differences ARE evident, especially in very revealing systems." Very true With speakers like Dynaudio Contours(3.3) ,nOrh 9.0 you can hear what some interconects and cables change in the overall presentation.Most will mock this,they simply dont have revealing systems and/or their eardrums are as stiff as a Velodyne HGS suspension(when the amp is ON). I fully agree with your views on Bryston amps,they make very good sounding SS amps(some of the best for the price).Musical Fidelity(NuVista integrated)and the Celeste MOON are very good amps.Almost no trace of edge with the MF and Celeste MOON.You should try the MOON W3 or W5(both need a few good hours of break in to sound their best). Krell does make great large power amps,I had a KSA50(the small KSA)and from what I remember the sound had "control".Krell amps are known for their superb bass(some may say too much of it)and great midrange.Later I did empty all my savings(almost) and got a FPB600,still the best(power and quality)SS in my book. I did listen to some Cary tube creations,from what I heard they do sound great,in the same vein did you hear the Audiomat Solfege?Its a French tube integrated,one of the best integrated amps I heard. BAT(Balanced Audio Tech.)would also rank way up on the list the VK-60 and now VK-75 will outperfom(IMO)many known and estblished tube amps.A must listen for tube maniacs TheEAR(s) Now theears Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rowooo Posted November 2, 2001 Share Posted November 2, 2001 Mobile... I have read all your posts, and in no way am I questioning your knowledge on any front. I also understand your talking about used SS gear in the comparisons with Adcom. Can you get older "higher end" amplifiers around the price you would pay for new Adcom pieces? SURE you can...but that's where it ends. I know many people who actually like factory warranties. And remember you can also get used Adcom gear for great prices as well. Also, your always welcome to come over and hear just how grainy Stevie Nicks sounds through my Music Hall 5 and Adcom 5500. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobile homeless Posted November 2, 2001 Share Posted November 2, 2001 Well, the point concerning the factory warranty is a valid one, indeed. In fact, I know of many that would not find it wise to spend such a substantial amount on a new piece of gear without having a warranty to make them feel more at ease. And when I am talking to people with this vantage point, I avoid the used gear quagmire altogether. On the other hand, I think that an amplifier purchase is one of the safest in the used market. Actually, I have not bought a new amplifier in over nine years if I am honest with myself. Obviously, gear with motors and more moving parts such as CD players, turntables, and tape decks etc deserve much more careful scrutiny (and some to be avoided altogether). But the used amplifier market is a GODSEND in that you can get some excellent gear in great shape at amazing prices you would never even imagine when new. Also, I have to say that I DO find ADCOM to be a solid company and their amps, for the most part, are very well made given the price point. And I have no doubt that you are getting sound you really love with your system. On the other hand, I think you would would be able to tell a distinct difference with your 5400 and one of the amplifiers mentioned above. Do you perceive obvious "grain" in the sound? No, but in comparison to other products with better parts, design, and implementation, you will see some of the faults, and a lack of a see-though midrange and a more closed in treble with less air is something I have always seen in ADCOM, if only after prolonged exposure to more refined amps. Hell, I have gotten so I cant really feel satisfied with the midrange and treble of ANY solid state amps even NEAR my price range. In some ways it is a curse as things you once loved sound pedestrian and coarse (relatively speaking). OF course, the vinyl is helping the cause - glad you have tackled that area... In my short exposure to vintage Klipsch speakers, I have found vinyl to be a most desired source. My Rega Planet has not been used in the last seven days.... khf>s> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KLIPSCHHOG Posted November 2, 2001 Share Posted November 2, 2001 Ouch! Mr. Homeless, I agree that Adcom just doesn't have the resolve or the "energy" to keep up with amps like McCormack's, Brystons, or Classe'. But you didn't have to break it so hard to this great BB. As for tubes I only wish I had the $$$$ to get a good pair of Vtl or Cary monos.. ------------------ LSU PAINTBALL- We'll cover you with our balls! Paintball players do it 'till their balls break! 1 Pair KLF-30's Sonic Frontiers SFL-1 Pre-amp Carver TFM-45 Amp Teac AD-4 CD Player ***Needed VPI HW Series Turntable*** Anybody Sellin'? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
discorules Posted November 2, 2001 Share Posted November 2, 2001 Well Mobile. I guess I can extend an invite to you as well to listen to my system. For HT I use SB3's and a RCA dolby surround system. Not too great but good enough for movies. For my serious stereo listening I have Magneplanar 1.6qr speakers, an HK 3370 receiver, a kenwood cd 406 changer, a 1978 kenwood manual direct drive turntable and a Micro-Acoustics 2002 cartridge. Oops, almost forgot those dreaded Home Depot 12 gauge zip cords. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olaf Posted November 3, 2001 Share Posted November 3, 2001 Micro-Acoustics 2002 cartridge discorules Do they still make the 2002e cartridge? I've wanted one of those for about 20 years. They are great cartridges and they have a much warmer sound than my old AT14. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
audiosaint Posted November 3, 2001 Share Posted November 3, 2001 klipschguy, just a thought. Have you heard the Naim nait 5? This 30 watt integrated amp sounds incredible and blows its comp. out of the water when it comes to overall musicality; I'm not kidding. Bryston, Adcom, rotel,Mcormack etc. I've owned/ heard these and they all sound like a corpse incomparo. 1600$ new, but wait for a used one to come up, it'll be worth the wait, to acheive a much greater level of musicality. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobile homeless Posted November 3, 2001 Share Posted November 3, 2001 Audiosaint is right about the little Naim Nait models, although I would not go quite as far in his comparison with other fine SS. Still, the little Naim stuff is VERY VERY musical is one of those pieces that "gets the musical whole" instead of the audiophile whizzbang. Yes, others might seem more dramatic, but the NAIM gear has always struck me a one of the most honest and musical options, more in the line of Linn and Rega, with Rega coming in a distant third. Like the Cornwall, the NAIM gear has soul and character. Some are not impressed by it by I agree that it offers a very natural presentation for SS. In the list I gave you, I would compare it more to the Meitner Monoblocks in seamless quality. NAIM has always marched to its own drum beat and they have been very concerned (and rightly so) with the importance of a good power supply, especially in their higher end models. khf>s>------------------ s y s t e m Linn LP-12/Linn Basic Plus/Sumiko Blue Point Rega Planet Cary Audio SLP-70 w/Phono Modified Creek OBH-12 Passive Preamp Welborne Labs 2A3 Moondog Monoblocks DIYCable Wire - Various 1977 Klipsch Cornwall I Alternate Components: EICO HF-81 - btw, perfect Cornwall match ASUSA A-4 EL-34 UL ProAc Mini-Towers EICO HFT-90 Tube FM Tuner Sumo Aurora Tuner Nakamichi CR-7af>s> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
discorules Posted November 3, 2001 Share Posted November 3, 2001 quote: Originally posted by Olaf: Micro-Acoustics 2002 cartridge discorules Do they still make the 2002e cartridge? I've wanted one of those for about 20 years. They are great cartridges and they have a much warmer sound than my old AT14. I think the company went out of business 15 years ago. I was fortnate a few years ago to get a couple of replacement stylii for the cartridge. I think a few places bought up what the company had left of stylii and cartridges and made them available for sale. There was one place on the net that up until 3 months ago that still had the the 630 and 282e cartridges. I went to there site recently and noticed that they longer offer any of these or any of there higher quality cartridges. I purchased it 22 years ago because of its excellent transient response, low (1.2g) tracking force capability and it's clean sound. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olaf Posted November 4, 2001 Share Posted November 4, 2001 discorules I just checked the 'Adelcom' website yesterday and they still have a few M.A. cartridges. I think they are the ones you mentioned . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boomer9911 Posted November 10, 2001 Share Posted November 10, 2001 Like I said, I powered a pair of Khorns through the Adcom Limited Edition GFA-585(the additional fan kit NEVER kicked in)and Hersey II's through a GFA-535\545II and it sounded tight, not into loose, divorced her....HA! Granted you pay for what you get, and I'm sorry, but I don't play for the NHL where I can afford a GREAT amp for 1 shift on the ice. I'm not an Engineer\Musician like 2/3 of the folk here, but after reading the forum on wax removal, I can hear, and Adcom with Klipsch are a bang for your REALISTIC buck! oh yes.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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