Back To The K77s

[J.4knee]

I thought Korn was more of a "what" as in "Corn" you know that starchy yellow vegetable.[]

[Deang]

That's an interesting observation. Hmmm.

Yeah, I like a lot of the newer obnoxious stuff, but I still do quite a bit of Moody Blues, The Beatles, Doors, etc.

I thought Leo's thread about the violin was interesting. Al and myself had a conversation a couple of weeks ago about the music we listen to and what we listen for in our music to determine "accuracy". He listens to Classical, and talked about the "smearing" he heard in stringed instruments that eventually led him to design the ESN series of networks. I predominately listen to pop/rock, and we quickly realized we were speaking in tongues to each other. I had no idea what he was talking about, and he had no idea what I was talking about. I have no idea when a violin or chello sounds "right", and I could hear Al's chest siezing up as I was decribing the sound of a Les Paul being played through an overdriven tube stack. How about the chunky crunch of a Strat, or maybe the sound of a drumstick being driven down into the skin of a snare. I told Al that I'd never really thought about it before, but most of the music I like is all very percussive in nature. For example, strings are plucked and attacked instead of rubbed with a bow.

[LarryC]

Larry, " They did bring up the treble, but it was disembodied from the midrange" Do you still have the tweeters? If you are curious try them one more time but this time reverse the phase to them? 'Disembodied' to me sounds sort of like an adjective that could describe an out of phase driver. There would be cancelation around the crossover point but the high end up still be intact. Shawn

No, I returned them to Bob rather than try to peddle them, because I thought the polar response was so strange. Now, I somewhat wish I'd sent them to someone else to try.

Your description of out-of-phase effects is very accurate in my experience, but I really think I'm so familiar with that effect that I would have spotted it immediately. Two out-of-phase drivers very characteristically fight each other and pop in and out of hearing as I move between them, and I felt I wasn't hearing that. I've heard out-of-phase drivers in 2- or 3-way systems before, and that's much more subtle than this, which was an entirely different tone quality as well as an intense beaming with pretty sharp fall-off, off-axis. Also, I could distinctly localize them as a source from across the room, a problem I've never experienced before. My K-77's don't do that.

Still, "never say never." You raise a very good point. I can't check it now, tho'.

Larry

[LarryC]

I have no idea when a violin or cello sounds "right", and I could hear Al's chest siezing up as I was decribing the sound of a Les Paul being played through an overdriven tube stack. How about the chunky crunch of a Strat, or maybe the sound of a drumstick being driven down into the skin of a snare. I told Al that I'd never really thought about it before, but most of the music I like is all very percussive in nature. For example, strings are plucked and attacked instead of rubbed with a bow.

Very interesting! -- I've been struck that at the pilgrimages, Klipsch's demos are almost entirely very percussive, and of course Klipsch is outstanding at reproducing that. Solo jazz horns and piano thrive on that as well. These things are a type of music that sounds very sharp (in both a good and bad sense) with SS electronics, so I don't think it's a coincidence that Klipsch is demo'd with SS.

It seems to me that more "delicate" music, um, like classical, but like plenty of jazz, too, requires a different type of listening and will sound better with tubes across the board. And, yes, one's own instrument gives a special insight as to how it's supposed to sound. I played the violin in high school, so I'm pretty sure about it, and have listened to tons of other instruments in classical settings. But I have little sense of how jazz instruments are supposed to sound, other than the string bass of course. It also doesn't help that jazz is usually amplified, which I suspect changes the character. I can tell that Leo is really very, very tuned in to strings.

[NOSValves]

I have no idea when a violin or cello sounds "right", and I could hear Al's chest siezing up as I was decribing the sound of a Les Paul being played through an overdriven tube stack. How about the chunky crunch of a Strat, or maybe the sound of a drumstick being driven down into the skin of a snare. I told Al that I'd never really thought about it before, but most of the music I like is all very percussive in nature. For example, strings are plucked and attacked instead of rubbed with a bow.

Very interesting! -- I've been struck that at the pilgrimages, Klipsch's demos are almost entirely very percussive, and of course Klipsch is outstanding at reproducing that. Solo jazz horns and piano thrive on that as well. These things are a type of music that sounds very sharp (in both a good and bad sense) with SS electronics, so I don't think it's a coincidence that Klipsch is demo'd with SS.

It seems to me that more "delicate" music, um, like classical, but like plenty of jazz, too, requires a different type of listening and will sound better with tubes across the board. And, yes, one's own instrument gives a special insight as to how it's supposed to sound. I played the violin in high school, so I'm pretty sure about it, and have listened to tons of other instruments in classical settings. But I have little sense of how jazz instruments are supposed to sound, other than the string bass of course. It also doesn't help that jazz is usually amplified, which I suspect changes the character. I can tell that Leo is really very, very tuned in to strings.

I prefer to listen to music in its complete form. I really think listening to one particular zoned in part or instrument in a song can indeed show the prowess of each particular change. But in the end what's important is the entire package "does it sound like music"<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />

Craig

[Piranha]

I have no idea when a violin or cello sounds "right", and I could hear Al's chest siezing up as I was decribing the sound of a Les Paul being played through an overdriven tube stack. How about the chunky crunch of a Strat, or maybe the sound of a drumstick being driven down into the skin of a snare. I told Al that I'd never really thought about it before, but most of the music I like is all very percussive in nature. For example, strings are plucked and attacked instead of rubbed with a bow.

Very interesting! -- I've been struck that at the pilgrimages, Klipsch's demos are almost entirely very percussive, and of course Klipsch is outstanding at reproducing that. Solo jazz horns and piano thrive on that as well. These things are a type of music that sounds very sharp (in both a good and bad sense) with SS electronics, so I don't think it's a coincidence that Klipsch is demo'd with SS.

It seems to me that more "delicate" music, um, like classical, but like plenty of jazz, too, requires a different type of listening and will sound better with tubes across the board. And, yes, one's own instrument gives a special insight as to how it's supposed to sound. I played the violin in high school, so I'm pretty sure about it, and have listened to tons of other instruments in classical settings. But I have little sense of how jazz instruments are supposed to sound, other than the string bass of course. It also doesn't help that jazz is usually amplified, which I suspect changes the character. I can tell that Leo is really very, very tuned in to strings.

I prefer to listen to music in its complete form. I really think listening to one particular zoned in part or instrument in a song can indeed show the prowess of each particular change. But in the end what's important is the entire package "does it sound like music"<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />

Craig

A lot of booze certainly helps [] Great post NOS

[J.4knee]

"I prefer to listen to music in its complete form. I really think listening to one particular zoned in part or instrument in a song can indeed show the prowess of each particular change. But in the end what's important is the entire package "does it sound like music""

<?XML:NAMESPACE PREFIX = O />

Yep I agree with Craig on this one. I don't listen for a specific thing to be correct but rather the overall tonal balance and I notice very much when I hear thing's I did not before. That is how the improved clarity hit me with the CT 125's. I was looking to see first if it sounded right in my system. I noticed I was hearing things that before struggled to appear. Then I did a tweak or two and some comparisons and found myself pretty happy with what I heard.

[LarryC]

I prefer to listen to music in its complete form. I really think listening to one particular zoned in part or instrument in a song can indeed show the prowess of each particular change. But in the end what's important is the entire package "does it sound like music"<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />

Craig

I do both. The entire pkg is necessary to get the overall balance, as well as where strengths and weaknesses lie. People have to do both anyway, since music is normally made up of solo and single section episodes alternating with most/all the players. What I described is also needed to deal with particular weaknesses. The orchestra as a whole isn't going to sound good if the violins and cellos are grainy and irritating.

Larry

[Deang]

What Larry said. Also, I think people who play an instrument tend to "listen in" on the instrument they play more than some of the other things going on in the music when they're dialing a system in. So with me, if the drum kit and guitars don't sound close to how I know they sound -- it doesn't matter much how "right" the violin sounds!

[NOSValves]

I prefer to listen to music in its complete form. I really think listening to one particular zoned in part or instrument in a song can indeed show the prowess of each particular change. But in the end what's important is the entire package "does it sound like music"<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />

Craig

I do both. The entire pkg is necessary to get the overall balance, as well as where strengths and weaknesses lie. People have to do both anyway, since music is normally made up of solo and single section episodes alternating with most/all the players. What I described is also needed to deal with particular weaknesses. The orchestra as a whole isn't going to sound good if the violins and cellos are grainy and irritating.

Larry

Larry,

I really wasn't trying to single your post out when I quoted you. I was just trying to keep the just of my post in line with others. I just think many people make these changes and zone in to listening to the "change" and do hear some improvements in say decay or how a certain instrument is produced but they forget to listen to the entire package to ascertain if it all blends and has balance. I messed with Trachorns and two different none stock tweeters for the last 2 months and I think I was lost in a sea of imbalance to the point of total burn out. I went back to the basics for a breather and then add one thing at a time before I give up on this after market stuff.

Craig

[LarryC]

Larry,

I really wasn't trying to single your post out when I quoted you. I was just trying to keep the just of my post in line with others. I just think many people make these changes and zone in to listening to the "change" and do hear some improvements in say decay or how a certain instrument is produced but they forget to listen to the entire package to ascertain if it all blends and has balance. I messed with Trachorns and two different none stock tweeters for the last 2 months and I think I was lost in a sea of imbalance to the point of total burn out. I went back to the basics for a breather and then add one thing at a time before I give up on this after market stuff.

Craig

Craig, I really apologize, I didn't realize how defensive I sounded when I wrote my post. You were absolutely right in the points you made, and I hope I was successful in trying to make some of mine. I've been where you are, and am happy now to be taking a satisfaction breather myself.

Larry

[D-MAN]

"Disembodied" is a good adjective for explaining that. For me, it means that the tweeter is a bit too hot so it stands apart (usually forward) of the soundstage, sort of like having the highlights stick out too much on a picture (you've seen the effect on TV, I'm sure).

Attenuating the tweets will blend tham back into the soundstage in a believable realistic manner, I refer to that as being "solid" and "rounded" sounding, as when the sound-source is clearly defined in as a point-source in the soundstage. It "fits" in, doesn't "stick out" and is realistically highlighted.

Sorry if none of that makes sense. We have to resort to all that non-scientific "stereo-babble" to describe what's going on. When you hear it, you'll know.

DM

[NOSValves]

"Disembodied" is a good adjective for explaining that. For me, it means that the tweeter is a bit too hot so it stands apart (usually forward) of the soundstage, sort of like having the highlights stick out too much on a picture (you've seen the effect on TV, I'm sure).

Attenuating the tweets will blend tham back into the soundstage in a believable realistic manner, I refer to that as being "solid" and "rounded" sounding, as when the sound-source is clearly defined in as a point-source in the soundstage. It "fits" in, doesn't "stick out" and is realistically highlighted.

DM

You make perfect sense your describing the K77 LMAO!!!!!!!!!!

[Duke Spinner]

Vinyl guy's ...

thier all hard of hearing...........[]

[garymd]

Could you repeat that?