NOSValves Posted March 9, 2006 Share Posted March 9, 2006 With all due respect, Gary, I do not hear a significant change in the overall sound between the K-77 and the Eminence, other than the Eminence being cleaner and more musical. They are in the same ballpark...Sure, there are differences, but even when running the tweeters front and rear, not one pair or the other is shouting out its differences - at least to my ears. Then again Bob has said that no two pairs of K77s sound uniform or even sometimes the same. Maybe its my K77s. This is very interesting. Could it be a production variation in this run of Bob's tweeters? EDIT: Gary's experience is surprisingly different from the others. Yes and this is why I was making suggestions because I have had the tweeter for a few days and do not think they change the character of the speaker. Isn't this site all about Klipsch people helping klipsch people? Larry didn't you get the tweeters also? Craig Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted March 9, 2006 Share Posted March 9, 2006 Actually Larry, I was going to apologize to you. Reading your post again made me realize that you were offering up the possibility that a run of those tweeters might be out of spec. I just called Bob, and he in fact does test each tweeter before shipping. Gary, I thought you had K-77-M's. Bob says you have the old K-77s with the round alnico magnets. If that's true, then yeah -- big difference! The Eminence driver has an additional 3dB of output and an extra 5000 cycles of extension. Those two things make for a very hot tweeter compared to what you are used to. You might consider getting a pair of Al's attenuators so you can enjoy the extra extension the new tweeters provide without being run out of the room. The VTA thing was something Craig brought up while we were talking last night. We were just wondering if something in the setup of your rig might be tilting the response. We were trying to be helpful. Alas, no good deed goes unpunished! Exactly and I asked Gary if he happened to get the same results running CD's but he said he never tried them. This led me to believe that it is possible (NOT ABSOLUTE) that the VTA is set too high on his turn table and with the original tweeters that supposedly only reach 12khz and have less output overall would of masks this VTA adjustment anomaly. This to me seems like a logical possible explanation. No one is questioning whether Gary does not like the sound of the tweeter were just questioning possible reasons for it. Craig Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LarryC Posted March 9, 2006 Share Posted March 9, 2006 ...Reading your post again made me realize that you were offering up the possibility that a run of those tweeters might be out of spec. I just called Bob, and he in fact does test each tweeter before shipping. Gary, I thought you had K-77-M's. Bob says you have the old K-77s with the round alnico magnets. If that's true, then yeah -- big difference! The Eminence driver has an addtional 3dB of output and an extra 5000 cycles of extension. Those two things make for a very hot tweeter compared to what you are used to. You might consider getting a pair of Al's attenuators so you can enjoy the extra extension the new tweeters provide without being run out of the room. Thanks, Dean. I really am puzzled about this, though, and am returning my 125's to Bob, following a very nice e-mail exchange with him. The reason I'm puzzled is that I decided they were producing different musical tone qualities than the mid and bass horns on my system. The result seemed to me that instruments were not presenting a coherent sound quality.In addition, the tweets seemed to be quite beamy in the highs, with noticeable fall-off in their treble production when I walked from on- to off-axis. I was getting considerable treble exaggeration because I sit on the side of my room on-axis with the right tweeter. It just seemed to me that what I took to be beaming undermined the tonal balance of my system, the eveness of sound distribution around my room, and a coherent sound stage at that end of the room. This is what led me to suggest some production deviance. It's so hard to believe that I'm hearing the same thing that so many experienced listeners on the forum are. I know, some of you are thinking there's something in the air around the Baltimore area (actually, I live in Bethesda and Gary lives in Columbia -- big differences!). I began arriving at my conclusions independently before Gary arrived at his, but delayed dealing with it until I got taxes and a music theory lesson out of the way. Still, I think we ended up in similar places. Although Gary has older K-77's, I have the newer AK-4 tweets -- big, heavy square magnets. I don't think it's a simple output level issue, since there's also the uneven horizontal distribution that my K-77's don't have, and they're also crossed at 4500. I don't want to try to be my own acoustic engineer in trying to solve a problem. I really regret returning these, because there's both a much greater clarity and an apparently lower noise factor that could account for that cymbal trailing edge advantage and similar. If Bob finds something wrong with these, I'd be glad to try again! Larry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garymd Posted March 9, 2006 Author Share Posted March 9, 2006 I have a theory. Larry and I have gone to great lengths to make our systems sound the way we like WITH the K77s via amps, preamps, TT/Arm/Cart Combo, I/Cs, power cords, specific tubes in the phono stage, internal wiring, crossovers, etc., etc. We have almost the exact same TT and although much of the rest is different (I'm only using one Siltech I/C and one ESP cord and Larry's amp and preamp are different than mine), our systems have a lot of similarities. Making the change to Bob's tweeters threw a wrench in what we both have done to make our systems sound the way we like using the K77s. If we started from scratch using Bob's tweeters and worked from there, we most likely would have done some things differently. Just a thought.[:^)] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allan Songer Posted March 9, 2006 Share Posted March 9, 2006 I have a theory. Larry and I have gone to great lengths to make our systems sound the way we like WITH the K77s via amps, preamps, TT/Arm/Cart Combo, I/Cs, power cords, specific tubes in the phono stage, internal wiring, crossovers, etc., etc. We have almost the exact same TT and although much of the rest is different (I'm only using one Siltech I/C and one ESP cord and Larry's amp and preamp are different than mine), our systems have a lot of similarities. Making the change to Bob's tweeters threw a wrench in what we both have done to make our systems sound the way we like using the K77s. If we started from scratch using Bob's tweeters and worked from there, we most likely would have done some things differently. Just a thought.[:^)] Well, that's what I inferred from your original post. Some of us just don't have "upgraditis." I've had the same basic system for over 15 years. Sure, there were some wire changes and tube changes, a new step up, CD player changes and a crossover change. All of these changes were "improvements" to be sure, but the overall sonic signature my hi-fi remains! Of course, I used to swap stuff out left and right back in the late 70's and through the 80's. But one day I stopped. Why? Because I had FINALLY put together a combonation that left me really, really satisifed. How many of the people here who have fallen in love with this new tweeter have had the same amp/preamp/turntable-arm-cartridge/speaker combonation for THREE years let alone 15? Most of you guys change components like they are BVDs!! And there's nothing wrong with that--but WAIT until you're SATISFIED. Man, oh man-- WHAT A FEELING! Looks like Gary and Larry have arrived where I've been for some time--spinning records with a big fat smile on our faces and not wondering too much about something "better." But I DID buy a pair of these tweeters--haven't installed them yet--just for the fun of it. Maybe they'll stay in the system and maybe not. But I seriously doubt they will really change the overall signature of my sytem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Lindsey Posted March 9, 2006 Share Posted March 9, 2006 Allan, you probably know the sound of your rig as well as anyone here. I would be real curious to know what you think of the tweeters. Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mark1101 Posted March 9, 2006 Share Posted March 9, 2006 I have a pair of Bob's tweeters on the way, and plenty to test with. 2 different types of Lascalas (1990/1977) with Bob's rebuilt AL-3s and AA, and custom ALK Jrs. (plus Al's tweeter attenuators). (newer style tweeter/mid in the 1990s and all alnico in the 1977) 2 different pairs of heresys (not sure which style tweeters)vertical cornwalls (alnico tweeters/mids)It will take me awhile, but another opinion will be posted once developed. I'm just glad I'll be trying them, I really can't wait. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mick Bell Posted March 9, 2006 Share Posted March 9, 2006 Just today installed Bob's tweeters in my K-Horns. I'll have to live with these a few days to say for sure but my initial impression is that they aren't nearly as hot as my K77-M tweeters! I'm using AL K's extreme slope networks and have the tweeter atenuator set as loud as possible. Haven't heard anyone else with this experience. Mick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psg Posted March 9, 2006 Share Posted March 9, 2006 Mine was similar (initially anyway), but posted in another thread. There are so many of them now! Try a track with cymbals. That's what did it for me. (Norah Jones "Come away with me") Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gilbert Posted March 9, 2006 Share Posted March 9, 2006 Perhaps my spouse is right, maybe my sense of humor really does seem weird to most normal people. I guess I will forever be labelled as just another fini-wannabe . . . . . This is good stuff...[] I'm dying over here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J.4knee Posted March 9, 2006 Share Posted March 9, 2006 Just today installed Bob's tweeters in my K-Horns. I'll have to live with these a few days to say for sure but my initial impression is that they aren't nearly as hot as my K77-M tweeters! I'm using AL K's extreme slope networks and have the tweeter attenuator set as loud as possible. Haven't heard anyone else with this experience. Mick I initially thought this too and even asked Bob about it when I first got the prototypes. The malady in my system turned out to be my squawker level was too hot, I knocked it down a tap in my "ALK" and voilà I was once again a very happy camper. I believe what may cause you to perceive K77M to be louder is a bump in its output around 6-8 KHZ. Bob indicated he has measured this condition on a number of K77M's. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Lindsey Posted March 9, 2006 Share Posted March 9, 2006 I initially thought this too and even asked Bob about it when I first got the prototypes. The malady in my system turned out to be my squawker level was too hot, I knocked it down a tap in my "ALK" and voilà I was once again a very happy camper. I believe what may cause you to perceive K77M to be louder is a bump in its output around 6-8 KHZ. Bob indicated he has measured this condition on a number of K77M's. Can I ask what you have your ALKs set to? I have mine set to 6.2 (4-x I believe) and feel comfortable with this setting but am curious what others like. Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J.4knee Posted March 9, 2006 Share Posted March 9, 2006 Mine are set the same as yours. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Piranha Posted March 10, 2006 Share Posted March 10, 2006 Are K-77's still available from Klipsch parts? I know I may be in the minority, but I think I'd rather get an OEM replacement if it's available just to keep my speakers as original as possible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mick Bell Posted March 10, 2006 Share Posted March 10, 2006 Attenuating the squakers did the trick! Thanks for the suggestion. Mick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Lindsey Posted March 10, 2006 Share Posted March 10, 2006 Are K-77's still available from Klipsch parts? I know I may be in the minority, but I think I'd rather get an OEM replacement if it's available just to keep my speakers as original as possible. It takes 10 minutes to swap them out. I have ALKs and a 511B squawker with BEC tweeters, and can go back to original in under an hour if I were to sell them. BTW... there are probably 100 pairs available to you on this site alone. Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psg Posted March 10, 2006 Share Posted March 10, 2006 I have ALKs and a 511B squawker with BEC tweeters, and can go back to original in under an hour if I were to sell them. Mike, The 511B doesn't drop into a KHorn top bin, does it? Do you have an alternate top bin? Or the Al K package? I must say I,m getting very curious to hear this! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Lindsey Posted March 10, 2006 Share Posted March 10, 2006 Hi Peter, I've got La Scala's, and mine just sit on top of the cabinet for now. I know with the Khorn, however, that it will fit inside the top section. I believe others have made a 2nd top section to house the 511B or the Trachorn. If I had a pair I would have someone make thenm for me. Most who have heard both the K400 and the 511B much prefer the 511B... it's pretty noticeable. mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daddy Dee Posted March 10, 2006 Share Posted March 10, 2006 Are K-77's still available from Klipsch parts? I know I may be in the minority, but I think I'd rather get an OEM replacement if it's available just to keep my speakers as original as possible. Piranha, Yep, the are still available and used in the current Khorn and LaScala. $249 each. Let me know if you want to buy a pair, I can make you a better deal on gently used K77's. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psg Posted March 10, 2006 Share Posted March 10, 2006 Thanks Mike. I'm going to have to try to hear them somewhere, sometime. Rare in these parts... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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