MarkBK Posted March 12, 2006 Share Posted March 12, 2006 Arcam is in da house and the shoot out has begun. This is the Arcam AVR300 vs Outlaw 990/7125 combo package. Set up has been RS Db metered to match outputs as close as possible. So far - first impression........... Outlaws win by a LARGE margin . The Arcam seems more compressed by comparison to the Outlaws, Let me be clear about this - the Arcam AVR300 is a VERY good sounding receiver - the best I have heard to date. BUT..... the Outlaw sounds less compressed - greater dynamic range is the best way I can describe the difference. Live recordings sound live vs like a recording of a live recording. More space between the instruments - MUCH quieter! The Arcam has a noticeable hum/hiss in the sensitive RF5s - the OUTLAWs are MUCH quieter!!! Only a slight noise when the Outlaw was turned ALL the way up. More to follow................................................................ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
m8o Posted March 12, 2006 Share Posted March 12, 2006 I eagerly await your review. My Onkyo 939 is -real- tired (read in my Butler 5150 thread) and I'm pretty sold on an Outlaw processor to replace it. ...not sure if I want the 990 or 970 tho...[8-)] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rcarlton Posted March 12, 2006 Share Posted March 12, 2006 I've been following your threads closely. Also on the fence about the Outlaw 990. Looking someday to upgrade the Denon AVR-3200...she has served me well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fish Posted March 12, 2006 Share Posted March 12, 2006 I'm glad to hear you like the Outlaw.I too was impressed with the very low noise floor and sound quality.Don't tell the 300 fanboys the Outlaw is better,I don't think they can handle it,really.The 990/7125 combo is a no brainer for new under 2k,imo. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meagain Posted March 12, 2006 Share Posted March 12, 2006 Wow Mark.... Considering how you gushed about the Arcam, this is interesting. Especially now that you're a/b'ing them at the same time. I also read Rotel has great sound, but I don't know what would be their equivalent offering at that price point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
m8o Posted March 12, 2006 Share Posted March 12, 2006 Wow Mark.... Considering how you gushed about the Arcam, this is interesting. Especially now that you're a/b'ing them at the same time. I also read Rotel has great sound, but I don't know what would be their equivalent offering at that price point. The Rotel is on my radar. However the Rotel seem to affer a a bit less for a bit more $$$, but not nearly as much more $$$ as so much more of its competition. Let me see if I can find that comparison table I found once... [click ticking sound here] Here we go:http://www.prillaman.net/950_chart.html [ MarkBK, I see this post on Outlaw's site... [] ] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkBK Posted March 13, 2006 Author Share Posted March 13, 2006 Outlaw vs. Arcam Arcam AVR300 receiver - $1999.00 Outlaw 990 pre / 7125 power amp separates $1898.00 <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /> After first spending a few days auditioning the Arcam AVR300 a few weeks ago, I ordered the Outlaw 990 Preamp Processor / 7125 7x125w Power Amp. Both the Outlaw and Arcam have been highly praised in reviews. For me, one of the most important issues was the audio quality for 2 channel listening. While I love my McIntosh C22/MC240 Tube gear, there are too many nights after a long day at the office in which I am too tired/lazy to change the cables from SS HT gear to the tubes. I also prefer to NOT use a Niles Audio switcher preferring a simpler signal path. Outlaws arrived one week ago and I have been breaking them in since then with the intent of bringing the Arcam back to do the shoot out this past weekend. After picking up the Arcam and setting the system up, I used and RS DB meter to set the output signal level as close as possible. BUILD QUALITY AVR300: Very well built, compact unit. Simple functional front panel controls. Clean design - silver with green display. OUTLAW 990/7125 both very well built. More black than gray in color with nice blue lights and display. The 990 is HUGE based on Sherwoods P965 and is the same size but completely different in appearance and programming. The 7125 is more compact at 5.75 tall but still wide/deep and VERY heavy for its size (51lbs). A massive 1.6kv toroidal transformer and 7 amp modules with massive heat sinks keep the amp running cool and quiet. I refer you to the websites for all the specs for all units. Outlaw: www.outlaw.com. Arcam: http://www.arcam.co.uk/prod_diva_AVR300_intro.cfm REMOTES: Both Arcam and Outlaw use the same Universal Electronics Catalyst 48 customized for each product. A simple but effective remote. Outlaw also supplies a 2nd smaller remote for a second Zone that you can feed from the 990 if desired. OVERVIEW: Arcam did some market research that indicated most people prefer an integrated receiver over separate components for Home Theater. Being an audio company first, Arcam set about designing a receiver that offered outstanding audio quality for 2 channel listening AND 7 channel Home Theater capabilities, well built with a target price under $2000.00. Outlaws goal for the 990 ($1099.00) was to provide an outstanding Preamp processor with balanced and non balanced outputs and the latest Dolby, DTS, Pro Logic, etc processing, including DVI video intentionally chosen since HDMI is still a moving target. The 7125 was designed to offer the best sounding 125 watt per channel amplifier for under a $1000.00. In addition they offer bundled pricing which reduces the price to 1898.00 for the 990/7125 combo. TEST RESULTS: ARCAM AVR300: Arcam engineering has done a great job of meeting the design objective. The receiver is lighter than I expected, but still has a good bit of heft to its weight. Setup is straight forward and the HT sound processing is outstanding. Again, I refer you to the website for details. The AVR300 offers an analog bypass for 2 channel that turns off all the video processing to minimize interference. Home Theater sound was outstanding. Details in Master and Commander were stunning. Same is true for the opera scene in the 5th Element. 2 channel audio: VERY detailed sound. Soundstage was quite good as was instrument placement. Bass was tight, mids were detailed and highs were accurate but never harsh unless the recording itself was harsh. This is a VERY musical sounding HT receiver and I think many people would find it provides a very satisfying music listening experience. OUTLAW 990/7125: Outlaw has also done an outstanding job with the 990 features and performance offering a large number of features including being able to convert PCM to 192/24. The 990 also has a 7.1 pure direct analog input path that bypasses ALL video processing to provide the most direct signal path. The 7125 is a real steal offering 125x7 at 8ohms and 190x7 at 4ohms ALL channels driven. The amp does what a great amp should do: it amplifies the signal and does it without coloring the sound in the process. I would describe it as quite neutral not harsh. These 2 units come in at about 80lbs so a good rack is required. Home Theater sound on the 990 was also excellent. Master and Commander had deck creaks and other small sounds that made one think you were below deck with others walking above you. Dynamic range was stunning. The 5th Element soundstage was also excellent. Bass remained tight never sloppy. The 990 more than met my needs for great sound processing for movies. 2 channel audio: VERY detailed sound. Soundstage was quite good as was instrument placement. Bass was tight, mids detailed and highs accurate not harsh. Instrument placement was focused creating a very wide and tall sound stage. ARCAM vs. OUTLAW On the OUTLAW 990/7125 - live recordings sounded like the band was in the room - the system just disappeared. Details such as finger noise as the guitarist slid up and down the neck of a Nylon string guitar made it sound like he was right there just to the left of the singer and slightly behind with the acoustic bass centered and behind the singer and slight further back than the guitarist. On the Arcam AVR300 detail was also quite good, but by contrast (and ONLY by contrast) to the 990, live recordings sounded less like a live band and more like a recording of a live band. I did the shootout with another friend present and we both noted that the Arcam sounded more compressed by contrast to the 990/7125 a little less dynamic than the Outlaw combo. It was still clearly one of the BEST sounding receivers weve heard and clearly BETTER than my friends Denon 3802 receiver but the Outlaw combo sounded better.The two companies products share a similar sonic quality, but the Outlaw seemed to have more more detail, more refinement to the sound stage better depth front to back and side to side. Echo decay was excellent on both - with the Outlaw sounding faster (God, I hate to use over blown audiophile terms but in this case its the best I can do) as though the dynamic range from something loud to something soft was more lifelike in decay. Snare drums had a 3 dimensional quality like it was a 5.5 deep snare vs. a 6.5deep snare you could hear the snare decay within the drum itself, just like a real drum. The Arcam was similar, but not quite as dimensional. This was true with both various rock and jazz recordings. Symphonies were also great, but I need more time testing to comment. Tonight is the last night for any additional testing before I return the Arcamat this time the Outlaws still win. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SilverSport Posted March 13, 2006 Share Posted March 13, 2006 Excellent review Mark...I will be looking for how this ends and how you would rate your Outlaw and Arcam to the McIntosh tubes...they are tubes after all... Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arky Posted March 13, 2006 Share Posted March 13, 2006 Mark Thank you for the effort. As you know, I have been particularly interested in your thoughts. Very helpful. JT Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkBK Posted March 13, 2006 Author Share Posted March 13, 2006 Excellent review Mark...I will be looking for how this ends and how you would rate your Outlaw and Arcam to the McIntosh tubes...they are tubes after all... Bill Thanks Bill. It's been interesting to compare 2 great sounding products. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkBK Posted March 14, 2006 Author Share Posted March 14, 2006 Mark Thank you for the effort. As you know, I have been particularly interested in your thoughts. Very helpful. JT JT,Thank you too- glad you found it helpful. I finished my testing of the Arcam last night. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SilverSport Posted March 14, 2006 Share Posted March 14, 2006 ...and???? [][] Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkBK Posted March 14, 2006 Author Share Posted March 14, 2006 ...and???? [][] Bill I focused on two tracks that had a great mix and a variety of acoustic instruments with vocals. There were pronounced differences in the echo decay on an instrument, the position of the instrument within the mix, and the overall dynamic changes within the song.Arcam - Nylon string guitar's echo was heard as a distinct echo in the right speaker - Outlaw had the echo eminating FROM the guitar to the right speaker as though the guitar was in a large room when recorded. It was more direct. Instruments that were back in the mix on the Arcam were more forward and distinct on the Outlaws - sounding like there was less smearing of the individual instrument parts - easier to hear each instrument within the mix. Bottom line: Arcam is an outstanding receiver.....but - Outlaw's 990/7125 is better to MY ears. Arcam goes back - Outlaws are here for the long haul. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SilverSport Posted March 14, 2006 Share Posted March 14, 2006 very cool...congratulations Mark... Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vince32837 Posted March 14, 2006 Share Posted March 14, 2006 Mark, I appreciate you taking the time to match up the AVR300 vs. 990. Three others have stated in PM emails to me that Arcam AVR300 sound and the AVP700 sound is near identical w/ a slight edge to the pre/pro(AVP700). These three others also stated the AVR300 and AVP700 for 2-channel music was in a different league from the 990. For DVD movies, the 990 and AVR300/AVP700 were quite close. Obviously your opinion differs from theirs. From reading your post, you use stronger verbage on the AVR300. I noticed you focused on live music recordings giving the 990 the edge...Did you listen to just plain studio recorded CD's? what was the 990 and avr300 delta there? What would be your opinion on: 1) DVD Movies: 990 is X % of a AVR300 sound quality 2) 2-channel (not live) music: if you got the chance? I am riding the fence on buying a pre/pro...the 990 and the AVP700 are on my shortlist. If the 990 is within 5-10% sound quality above or below an AVR300 I'll should join the 990 club too... But if its 20-25% below, I'll pickup an AVP700 with its static electricty issues etc.... Thanks Vince Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkBK Posted March 14, 2006 Author Share Posted March 14, 2006 Mark, I appreciate you taking the time to match up the AVR300 vs. 990. Three others have stated in PM emails to me that Arcam AVR300 sound and the AVP700 sound is near identical w/ a slight edge to the pre/pro(AVP700). These three others also stated the AVR300 and AVP700 for 2-channel music was in a different league from the 990. For DVD movies, the 990 and AVR300/AVP700 were quite close. Obviously your opinion differs from theirs. From reading your post, you use stronger verbage on the AVR300. I noticed you focused on live music recordings giving the 990 the edge...Did you listen to just plain studio recorded CD's? what was the 990 and avr300 delta there? Actually I listened to a wide variety of music - live and studio jazz recordings - DeeDee Bridgewater; Ray Brown, Rock - Peter Gabriel - So; Dire Straits - remastered Brothers In Arms; Kate Bush - Aerial, etc.. The reference to sounding live was in regards to a guitar sounding like it was in the room - and this was on a studio recording (very well recorded - I might add). Bear in mind the Arcam and Outlaw are awfully close in most respects - but the Outlaw is 100.00 cheaper AND offers the latitude of seperate components. What would be your opinion on: 1) DVD Movies: 990 is X % of a AVR300 sound quality They use the same DSP and to my ear are similar in most respects. The Outlaws, however had a great dynamic range - so I would put it slightly above Arcam - 10%? Maybe. ) 2-channel (not live) music: if you got the chance? See first answer above. I am riding the fence on buying a pre/pro...the 990 and the AVP700 are on my shortlist. If the 990 is within 5-10% sound quality above or below an AVR300 I'll should join the 990 club too... But if its 20-25% below, I'll pickup an AVP700 with its static electricty issues etc.... I'm joining the Outlaw club. The 990 is at least the same in some ways but mostly BETTER than the AVR300 - NOT below in any way to MY ears. Regarding the AVR700 - If I recall correctly - the AVP700 is SIGNIFICANTLY more money and should NOT be in the same league or else someone is getting ripped off. A forum member on Outlaw participated in a blind test with 9 people and the AV8 (NOW THE AV9) was rated by all to be 20-25% better than 990 - BUT at 5 times the cost (DOUBLE EDIT: JUST CHECKED the blind test thread - it was the Arcam AV8 - replaced now by the AV9 pre which is 5749.00!!!). For me, 75% of the quality for 20% of the cost is a no brainer - I'll take the 75% and pocket the $4k difference. Thanks Vince 3/15/06 - note the change I made to my last comment. The Arcam used in the blind test I referenced was the Arcam AV8 pre - MUCH more money than the AVP700. Interestingly - they DID compare the AVR300 to the Pre Procs used (Outlaw, Anthem, and NAD) and the Outlaw was better than the AVR300 to their ears too. - By a similar amount to what I noted. AVR300 is still a great product - but the Outlaw wins for ME. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JDeSimone Posted March 14, 2006 Share Posted March 14, 2006 I pulled the trigger today. Thanks in part to the review done here. 990 and 7125 I feel like a kid on Christmas Eve![] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkBK Posted March 14, 2006 Author Share Posted March 14, 2006 I pulled the trigger today. Thanks in part to the review done here. 990 and 7125 I feel like a kid on Christmas Eve![]I know the feeling JD - enjoy!. BTW - I ordered mine on a Tuesday - with several Outlaw cable - PCA, etc and received ALL by Saturday the same week! That was a great kick to the weekend! Do download the manual and read it to get aquainted with it. BTW the 7.1 analog is selected using the remote - if you do multichannel audio you'll appreciate knowing this up front. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meagain Posted March 14, 2006 Share Posted March 14, 2006 Having the ability to do that via remote is important to me. Mark - you mentioned really likeing the Outlaw interconnects received with the units. I desperately need interconnects and went to the site to look around. So many size options to choose from. Would you be able to tell me which ones you have that you appreciate so much so that I can order those separately? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vince32837 Posted March 14, 2006 Share Posted March 14, 2006 Mark, Most other Arcam players stated that AVR300 Receiver was 95% sound quality of a AVP700 Pre-Pro. Based on your thoughts that the 990 is dead-even or better than a AVR300 receiver means the 990 is dead-even or very close to a AVP700 (which is MSRP $2200 = 2x 990 cost) The other issue is the AVP700 shuts down from static electricty every 3-4 months requiring a power cycling for most users...Unacceptable on a $2200 unit. Thanks for the additional detail to your review, Vince Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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