"Tube" watts....

[Mike Lindsey]

Looks like we should be getting together at the beginning of April. Really looking forward to hearing the Jubilee's, and will bring the VRD's and BBX to plug into his La Scala's. Should be a fun day. Will report back the findings.

Mike

[Jeff Matthews]

Tell you what Paul, bring your little tube amp over and we'll hook it up to another system I have that is La Scala based...you have La Scalas right? This system is very simple, 100 watt BGW and a preamp with two speakers in an average sized room. I'll even keep it fair, I'll use the smallest BGW amp I have...50 watts per channel (the same exact model PWK used by the way) and I'd be willing to bet it still sounds at least as good in the midrange and seriously outperforms the tube amp in the bass regions.

I have a much better idea. Lets get a pair of VRD's over to your place with a Juicy music pre and compare the outcome against your 50 watt BGW surely someone in your area can do this. I'm not stating that one will be better then the other I have no experience with the system you have. I'm totally curious as to what the outcome would be. It would also be nice is more then just one or two members were present for the shoot out.

What tube gear exactly have you run and if vintage what electrical condition was it in??

Craig

As I read it, Mike Lindsay and he already have this in the works. It'll be interesting to see what they "negotiate."

Mike and I have plans to get together the first weekend in April. We are going to hook his equipment up to my bone stock La Scalas and make that comparison. The Jubilees use an active crossover with 3 amps and it's all racked. That is probably too much to tear down, besides the only driver we could really put the tube amp on to make any comparisons would be the midrange...everything else would still employ SS amps. So we thought making a full range comparisons on a stock set of Las Scalas would be the best way to go.

It's not all about this Tube vs. SS debate anyway, I think he would just like to hear the Jubilees first hand. Even if he rejects the BGW as a good sounding amp we are going to have some fun and no hard feelings.

Very cool and I could careless if the results are even reported back to the forum one way or the other. I would however like to hear what you think in private. What year are your Lascalas and when you say stock do you mean 100% stock. What crossovers are in them? If you want we can take these details to private email if you like craigostby@comcast.net

I'm still wondering what Tube gear you have tried by the way.

Craig

Craig...sorry didn't mean to dodge your question. The La Scalas are 1989 vintage if I remember correctly and unfortunately use the original AL networks...but they are my wife's now and she does like them. They are destined to be tri-amped soon. I have one more BGW in the shop getting new output caps and then I'll take out the passive crossover altogether.

The history of how I got here is a long one, but I'll keep it short. It really got started in 1992 when I was fresh out of grad school. I blew all my savings on a brand new pair of 1992 Khorns, a brand new Dynaco ST-70 and mint vintage McIntosh C-26 and about $500 bucks worth of speaker wire. I already had all the other stuff (turntable, tape deck, etc, etc).

I had auditioned a vintage Mac tube amp that the dealer had out of his collection he wanted to sell me but I could not afford it. I did prefer the sound to the Dynaco however. Anyways time marched on, I collected more stuff and grew increasingly less satisfied with the ST-70. The trouble really started when I sold the Khorns to make some cash for my first house. I kept the some of the other stuff but acquired the La Scalas many years ago to replace my Khorns...now I made a serious mistake. At that time I was not familiar with this Klipsch speaker. The tube amp just did not get it for me at all on the La Scalas so I started experimenting with other amps. I tried the Onkyo M504 and it was very harsh, then a NAD 218THX better than the Onkyo but still lacked bottom end. I tried a couple of Carvers, a beast of a vintage Marantz (the one with the meters but I can't recall the model as I retuned it when an output capacitor smoked on me), a QSC 2450 which was not too bad...the tube amp was out of the picture so I purchased a very nice BGW 750B, had it updated and WOW it made the bottom on those La Scalas really sound good. I had sold most of my equipment back in the mid 1980's to finance college and had not owned another BGW until a few years ago when I started making changes to my system.

Back when I was doing sound re-enforcement I used BGW, SAE and Phase Linear in a very large system. Maybe it's nostalgia or personal preference but nothing I tried sounded as good to me.

Your in for a rude awakening in April. Not to say your going to prefer tubes to SS but I'm about 200% sure you will change your opinions about tubes/bass real fast.

Craig

I'd bet you'll agree with Craig on this point. His "tube" watts really aren't just ordinary watts! [] (Just kidding, Craig!) But yeah, you'll be surprised if your speculation is his tubes won't slam. They will. The funny part is Craig doesn't even know why!

Given your life-long quest to find those BGW's (which I know nothing about), I also feel sure you will stay as content with what you have as you ever were. In the end, you both will have some good fun.

To both of you, Mike and 6-foot, be sure to do what I failed to do - spend some time listening and comparing at low and moderate volumes. That is an areas where I missed out when I compared to VRD's.

[NOSValves]

I'd bet you'll agree with Craig on this point. His "tube" watts really aren't just ordinary watts! [] (Just kidding, Craig!) But yeah, you'll be surprised if your speculation is his tubes won't slam. They will. The funny part is Craig doesn't even know why!

If you believe this I have some lake front property to sell you.

Given your life-long quest to find those BGW's (which I know nothing about), I also feel sure you will stay as content with what you have as you ever were. In the end, you both will have some good fun.

To both of you, Mike and 6-foot, be sure to do what I failed to do - spend some time listening and comparing at low and moderate volumes. That is an areas where I missed out when I compared to VRD's.

The quotes of quotes of quotes of quotes were getting just a bit crazy here guy's! You guy's know you can edit what is quoted LOL!!

[meagain]

I have a question.... (raising hand).....

Mr. NOSValves - If when playing your VRD amps, I detect pounding, fierce, slamming, deep, tight bass (which I do).... What do you think could be wrong with me?

Is it because I don't have an ABD in applied mathematical statistics?

Please explain.

[NOSValves]

I have a question.... (raising hand).....

Mr. NOSValves - If when playing your VRD amps, I detect pounding, fierce, slamming, deep, tight bass (which I do).... What do you think could be wrong with me?

Is it because I don't have an ABD in applied mathematical statistics?

Please explain.

No worries. It's because I have no clue what I'm doing LOL!!

[6foot8]

I have a question.... (raising hand).....

Mr. NOSValves - If when playing your VRD amps, I detect pounding, fierce, slamming, deep, tight bass (which I do).... What do you think could be wrong with me?

Is it because I don't have an ABD in applied mathematical statistics?

Please explain.

It's your neighbor's subwoofer meagin. We will see about those VRDs in April when Mike shows up at my place. If I am wrong then I will glady admit it and go buy me a couple of pairs.

By the way to all...DrWho replied in a post on "distortion" about this notion of percived differences in distortion of tube vs SS...I think he makes a very good point.

[6foot8]

Here's what I think is going to happen on that fateful day in April...Craig if you have an issue with my analysis then please tell me. The room the La Scalas are in is about 12 w by 15 d. It is not a closed room, it opens up into a dinning area and then by the front halllway a staircase up to the 3rd level. Listening will be 10-12 feet or so away from the front of the speakers. Assuming the VRDs will put out 8 watts RMS of solid power that should be around 112-113 dbs (c weighted) at 3 feet from the driver. We should therefore be experienceing c weighted levels at the listening area averaging around the 102 to 105 dB level. now understanding that watts are watts (in a purley electrical sense) and that dBs are dbs both amps should be able to produce similar levels of bass at that power level. I will ignore preferences in midrange and high frequency reproduction for the sake of this discussion. Now most would argue that this is more than sufficient, and for this room I would definitely agree.

Where I think the differences would become apparent is if we were to move the La Scalas to the big room on the first level and attempted to drive the La Scalas to 100-105 c weighted dBs at 20-25 feet away. At this point the speakers would need to see power somewhere in the neighborhood of 100 watts at the drivers...is this correct? I think the tube amp would run o ut of gas before it could produce those kind of SPls that far away...only because it will be driving full range frequencies. If the tube amp were only producing power for 400Hz and up I think it would be fine.

Remember that on the Jubilles the 402 MF and the Grand HF andle 50 watts RMS with 6dB peaks (200 watts peak). I don't ever drive them anywhere near that point but the do sometimes see 5 watts rms. I have measured c weighted SPLs near 118 at the horn flare on occaision.

Is this how you see it Craig?

[maxg]

Whilst the numbers for your big room might be correct (I have not sat down to check them - I will play with that at the bottom) I think you need to remember that the difference in SPL between 64 wpc and 100 wpc is about 2 dB. In other words it should be barely noticable at these levels.

Headroom, OTOH, might be an issue - depending on the peaks you are experiencing and whether the recording itself is compressed (not uncommon to see a miserly 10 dB range on a CD).

A lot will depend on the room - loses vary. You could find, for example:

Speaker - 104 dB/w/m

Add 6 for the second speaker:

Remove 6 for every doubling of distance:

110 @ 1 meter

104 @ 2 meters

98 @ 4 meters

92 @ 8 meters (which is about 26 foot)

64 wpc adds 18 dB

92+18 = 110 dB at the listening position.

We are probably a bit far at 8 meters but leaving it there you should be able to run 105 continuous if you have 10 dB range. If its 20 you will be testing the amp for its ability to provide additional headroom.

Its interesting to note that 100 wpc would only add a total of 20 dB or 2 more. In other words it would cope with a dynamic range of 14 dB rather than 10 before exploring its headroom.

I think that any way you cut this one the VRD will go loud enough for the majority of listeners with a KHorn (or 2).

If you want louder than this - the Avantgarde Trio is 110 dB/w/m and also takes upto 100 wpc. They are a tad more expensive however.

[Mike Lindsey]

The room the La Scalas are in is about 12 w by 15 d. It is not a closed room, it opens up into a dinning area and then by the front halllway a staircase up to the 3rd level. Listening will be 10-12 feet or so away from the front of the speakers. Assuming the VRDs will put out 8 watts RMS of solid power that should be around 112-113 dbs (c weighted) at 3 feet from the driver. We should therefore be experienceing c weighted levels at the listening area averaging around the 102 to 105 dB level.

My La Scala's sit in a room very similar to this. The room is 15' W x 18' D x 10' H, and open on the one side leading to the kithen and hallway. They are along the back wall about 12 feet apart, and the listening position is 12 - 13 feet away. From the listening position they have no trouble whatsoever sustaining 105db (with peaks beyond that) according to my Rat Shack SPL meter.

Should be interesting to say the least...

Mike

[6foot8]

Hey Max,

I don't recall ever getting 110 dBs at the listening position in the large room with the La Scalas. However the 402 MF in the Jubilee is rated at 111 dBs at one meter with 2.83 volts of input power.

[6foot8]

Mike which spl meter do you have? Are you a or c weighting? I have the digital meter but I am not sure how reliable the readings are. My BGWs have meters and I know the efficieny ratings on the speakers so I have attempted to verify the readings by running the speakers until I get 111 dBs a few feet from the driver itself on the mids and then see if the amps are averaging 1 watt. This assumes the meters on the amps are correctly calibrated but it is the only way I know how to see if the SPLs the meter says I am hearing is close.

[maxg]

Hey Max,

I don't recall ever getting 110 dBs at the listening position in the large room with the La Scalas. However the 402 MF in the Jubilee is rated at 111 dBs at one meter with 2.83 volts of input power.

As I think (hope) I said in my earlier post - these values will vary with the room. They can be either higher or lower as there is always a mix of sonic reflections and absorption from furnishings etc.

Of course - we will all giggle like silly schoolgirls if the VRD goes louder than your current amps.[]

[Mike Lindsey]

Mike which spl meter do you have? Are you a or c weighting? I have the digital meter but I am not sure how reliable the readings are

It's the Analog model, and yes, I use c weighting. I'll bring it with me for comparison. I just put a new battery in it as well.

Mike

[6foot8]

Hey Max,

I don't recall ever getting 110 dBs at the listening position in the large room with the La Scalas. However the 402 MF in the Jubilee is rated at 111 dBs at one meter with 2.83 volts of input power.

As I think (hope) I said in my earlier post - these values will vary with the room. They can be either higher or lower as there is always a mix of sonic reflections and absorption from furnishings etc.

Of course - we will all giggle like silly schoolgirls if the VRD goes louder than your current amps.[]

Max Max Max Max Max...if I have to pull out the 300 watt BGW 750G to win the loudness contest I'll trot that sucker out![]

[Jeff Matthews]

They haven't even got together yet, and already they're getting ready to see how loud it gets before it all falls apart.

Trust me, my Crown has gobs more power than the VRD's, but the VRD's get loud enough. I've been the brunt of numerous "ear-bleeder" jokes here.

Guys, be sure to spend some time comparing at moderate volumes.

[Mike Lindsey]

Of course - we will all giggle like silly schoolgirls if the VRD goes louder than your current amps.[]

LMAO!

Well, they may not go as loud, but they certainly go loud enough for my room.... and sound pretty good doing it. []

Mike

[6foot8]

They haven't even got together yet, and already they're getting ready to see how loud it gets before it all falls apart.

Trust me, my Crown has gobs more power than the VRD's, but the VRD's get loud enough. I've been the brunt of numerous "ear-bleeder" jokes here.

Guys, be sure to spend some time comparing at moderate volumes.

We will Jeff. I was just kidding Max. Most of my BGWs are all racked downstairs with the other system and that is where they are going to stay. I only have two spares both very moderatley powered.

[NOSValves]

Of course - we will all giggle like silly schoolgirls if the VRD goes louder than your current amps.[]

LMAO!

Well, they may not go as loud, but they certainly go loud enough for my room.... and sound pretty good doing it. []

Mike

The limiting factor in the setup will be the speakers not the amps. The VRD's can easily push the Lascalas beyond there SPL rating. Some folks may like what Horn distortion sounds like but I sure ain't one of them. Besides if you drive the speakers up that loud both setups will sound the same IMHO "like sh!t".

Craig

[6foot8]

Craig...will those amps of yours produce 100 watts rms?

[Jeff Matthews]

On the other hand, some songs are just MADE for cranking because of the effects in them. For example, "Tocatta" on ELP's Brain Salad Surgery. You MUST let that song rip to really get into it. Or, try "Endless Enigma" or "Trilogy" from ELP's Trilogy. Same thing, although these latter songs are also good at lower volumes. But they can dazzle you at high volumes.