"Tube" watts....

[jacksonbart]

All this discussion between tubes and SS, I cant believe marijuana is so prevalent in audio. Does every one have glaucoma?

[6foot8]

All this discussion between tubes and SS, I cant believe marijuana is so prevalent in audio. Does every one have glaucoma?

Hey Bart...wanna come for din din?[A]

[SilverSport]

...is this why many tube amplifiers sound sweet at the quieter levels and perhaps we SS nuts like it louder??? I mean some SS amps seem to "wake up" (more detail???) at louder levels and that is partially why we listen to it at a louder level than perhaps you tube maniacs???...'cuz you're getting that "detail" at lower levels of sound...extrapolated to mean that tube watts are in fact "louder" than SS watts???

Bill

[jacksonbart]

All this discussion between tubes and SS, I cant believe marijuana is so prevalent in audio. Does every one have glaucoma?

Hey Bart...wanna come for din din?[A]

Not if you have the munchies.

[6foot8]

All this discussion between tubes and SS, I cant believe marijuana is so prevalent in audio. Does every one have glaucoma?

Hey Bart...wanna come for din din?[A]

Not if you have the munchies.

All this talk about food is getting me hungry.

[NOSValves]

I have had both Khorns and la Scalas driven with both tube and SS and in my experience I was always on the edge of the sofa wanting more when I was using a tube amp. Impossible to get enough bottom end in a large room with a small amp (tube or SS). I no longer have the Khorns but I still have the La Scalas in another room and the improvement in bottom end was very noticeable with a very good SS amp..again BGW. These are very large amps with massive power supplies and are rated at least twice what the speakers will handle continuously. Some of my bigger BGWs are three times rated power of the La Scalas...they do not clip, or get close to running out of power...period and end of story. I also have the added benefit of more bottom end at reasonable listening levels in a large room. For my Jubilees I must have a very good SS amp for them as no tube amp in the world (that I know of) is going to give me a minimum of 400 watts continuous with 6dBs of headroom without costing more than my house and weighing in at 500lbs.

You need a very good TUBE AMP!!! I think your impressions would change fast. I'm not suggesting that a 20 watt tube amp is going to blow anyone out of there room with commanding bass response! But in this case it would just be a good way to compare what happens when both topologies were pushed. If higher watt amps were used it would be near impossible to safely get the the melting point for the ears and pictures/nick nacks on the wall[] Heck 20 quality watts will get pretty loud also!!

Craig

[Jeff Matthews]

I'll go with Max's statement. Plug an 8 watt tube amp into 104 dB/1 watt/1 meter efficiency speakers, and you'd be surprised at the "magic" of those 8 "tube" watts.

This was not about the same old headroom, tubes vs. SS argument. I simply wanted to know what people were saying when they say "The are tube watts." Now, I know. They do not know what they are saying.

I will agree with sonic differences, but not in the manner of affecting SPL on a watt-per-watt comparison.

.......... Unless, of course, the watt that is being compared is being clipped. Then, maybe the type of clipping will show differences. But as long as there is no clipping, a watt is a watt is a watt for SPL purposes. The article I referenced was misleading.

[6foot8]

...is this why many tube amplifiers sound sweet at the quieter levels and perhaps we SS nuts like it louder??? I mean some SS amps seem to "wake up" (more detail???) at louder levels and that is partially why we listen to it at a louder level than perhaps you tube maniacs???...'cuz you're getting that "detail" at lower levels of sound...extrapolated to mean that tube watts are in fact "louder" than SS watts???

Bill

You're probably right Bill. I like to listen to music at levels that would be comparable to a live performance. I don't get much out of Deep Purple at room conversation levels. I want it to sound as if I were there...again.

[NOSValves]

I'll go with Max's statement. Plug an 8 watt tube amp into 104 dB/1 watt/1 meter efficiency speakers, and you'd be surprised at the "magic" of those 8 "tube" watts.

This was not about the same old headroom, tubes vs. SS argument. I simply wanted to know what people were saying when they say "The are tube watts." Now, I know. They do not know what they are saying.

I will agree with sonic differences, but not in the manner of affecting SPL on a watt-per-watt comparison.

.......... Unless, of course, the watt that is being compared is being clipped. Then, maybe the type of clipping will show differences. But as long as there is no clipping, a watt is a watt is a watt for SPL purposes. The article I referenced was misleading.

Uummm I think you got it. Well maybe not....... []

[6foot8]

I've gotta go find some food.

[NOSValves]

...is this why many tube amplifiers sound sweet at the quieter levels and perhaps we SS nuts like it louder??? I mean some SS amps seem to "wake up" (more detail???) at louder levels and that is partially why we listen to it at a louder level than perhaps you tube maniacs???...'cuz you're getting that "detail" at lower levels of sound...extrapolated to mean that tube watts are in fact "louder" than SS watts???

Bill

You're probably right Bill. I like to listen to music at levels that would be comparable to a live performance. I don't get much out of Deep Purple at room conversation levels. I want it to sound as if I were there...again.

Actually with a good tube amp of higher output you can have both scenario's!! I also bet with top quality SS the case is much the same. I ain't talking no Crown []

Craig

[SilverSport]

I'll go with Max's statement. Plug an 8 watt tube amp into 104 dB/1 watt/1 meter efficiency speakers, and you'd be surprised at the "magic" of those 8 "tube" watts.

This was not about the same old headroom, tubes vs. SS argument. I simply wanted to know what people were saying when they say "The are tube watts." Now, I know. They do not know what they are saying.

I will agree with sonic differences, but not in the manner of affecting SPL on a watt-per-watt comparison.

.......... Unless, of course, the watt that is being compared is being clipped. Then, maybe the type of clipping will show differences. But as long as there is no clipping, a watt is a watt is a watt for SPL purposes. The article I referenced was misleading.

Craig,

...well then could you explain what he said to me???? []...does he even know what he just said??? [] (teasing, Jeff...but then I do that with defense attorneys)

Bill

[meagain]

I have had both Khorns and la Scalas driven with both tube and SS and in my experience I was always on the edge of the sofa wanting more when I was using a tube amp. Impossible to get enough bottom end in a large room with a small amp (tube or SS). I no longer have the Khorns but I still have the La Scalas in another room and the improvement in bottom end was very noticeable with a very good SS amp..again BGW. These are very large amps with massive power supplies and are rated at least twice what the speakers will handle continuously. Some of my bigger BGWs are three times rated power of the La Scalas...they do not clip, or get close to running out of power...period and end of story. I also have the added benefit of more bottom end at reasonable listening levels in a large room. For my Jubilees I must have a very good SS amp for them as no tube amp in the world (that I know of) is going to give me a minimum of 400 watts continuous with 6dBs of headroom without costing more than my house and weighing in at 500lbs.

You need a very good TUBE AMP!!! I think your impressions would change fast. I'm not suggesting that a 20 watt tube amp is going to blow anyone out of there room with commanding bass response! But in this case it would just be a good way to compare what happens when both topologies were pushed. If higher watt amps were used it would be near impossible to safely get the the melting point for the ears and pictures/nick nacks on the wall[] Heck 20 quality watts will get pretty loud also!!

Craig

This is TRUE!

[dbflash]

I asked the same thing and Mark was nice enough to reply with an answer I could understand:

Tube watts - - Well, there is one technical part, and one perceptual part.
Technically, many tube amps have "clean headroom" of around 3dB. So, a 60W rated tube amp will often put out 120W "music peaks." Since peak power is really the only important power, not RMS power, then your 60W tube rig has the "sound" of about 120W amp.

With SS amps, there is generally 0dB headroom, at the EXACT rail voltage of the amp, the wave form totally flattens out. If the amp is fed by + and - 24V supply - - that's it - not a dime past "24V" will that amp put out. If the amp is 60W RMS, that is ALL it will put out under any signal condition.

So, a 60W push pull tube rig has about the same sonic power as a 120W SS rig. Make sense?

Perceptually, there is another issue. When tube amps are overdriven - past rated power - they clip "softly" which means they just gradually increase the distortion from say, 1% to 5% and this is not a "harsh" type sound. With SS amps, the distortion at the ONSET of clipping jumps immediately to like 100% - meaning totally intolerable sounds come out of the amp. Now then, if you have a music signal with just a 10ms peak of +3dB over rated power, it will make HASH come out of the speaker. This means you tend to never run an SS amp at a level which creates this hash. With a tube amp, you would hear no issue at all with that same 10ms +3dB peak.

So, yes, watts is watts electrically, but when IN CIRCUIT the behavior of specific circuit becomes the determinant factor.
Hope that helps.
mdeneen<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />

[NOSValves]

I asked the same thing and Mark was nice enough to reply with an answer I could understand:

Tube watts - - Well, there is one technical part, and one perceptual part.

Technically, many tube amps have "clean headroom" of around 3dB. So, a 60W rated tube amp will often put out 120W "music peaks." Since peak power is really the only important power, not RMS power, then your 60W tube rig has the "sound" of about 120W amp.

With SS amps, there is generally 0dB headroom, at the EXACT rail voltage of the amp, the wave form totally flattens out. If the amp is fed by + and - 24V supply - - that's it - not a dime past "24V" will that amp put out. If the amp is 60W RMS, that is ALL it will put out under any signal condition.

So, a 60W push pull tube rig has about the same sonic power as a 120W SS rig. Make sense?

Perceptually, there is another issue. When tube amps are overdriven - past rated power - they clip "softly" which means they just gradually increase the distortion from say, 1% to 5% and this is not a "harsh" type sound. With SS amps, the distortion at the ONSET of clipping jumps immediately to like 100% - meaning totally intolerable sounds come out of the amp. Now then, if you have a music signal with just a 10ms peak of +3dB over rated power, it will make HASH come out of the speaker. This means you tend to never run an SS amp at a level which creates this hash. With a tube amp, you would hear no issue at all with that same 10ms +3dB peak.

So, yes, watts is watts electrically, but when IN CIRCUIT the behavior of specific circuit becomes the determinant factor.

Hope that helps.

mdeneen<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />

Oh man that is a great explanation from a true college educated and audio experienced engineer that is not blinded by specification. I may not be able to portray in written word but at least I have the basic just of it.

Craig

[PrestonTom]

The unfortunate thing is that it seems that Shawn (SFogg) got chased away by the bickering.

The reason this is unfortunate is that Shawn clearly has an engineering background and is able to explain many of the issues at a conceptual level. This is fortunate since many on the forum do not have the necessary math & physics. That is not a jab at anyone, it is just difficult to communicate these concepts without using a blackboard & equations.

That said, I think you should listen to what Shawn is saying. If there are unfamilair terms, then by all means ask for a definition. Unfortunately, the hostility of the discussion prevents others from learning. You really should listen to what an engineer has to say about what is essentially an engineering-issue.

Unfortunately, I do not have the patience to clear up some of the confusion about signals, systems, & measurement. If I tried, I would have to listen to a bunch of attacks, fuzzy thinking, & venom. I won't bother.

Good Luck,

-Tom

[maxg]

Here you go Jeff - the answer to your dreams:

The Tsakiridis Electra avaiable with EL34 (150 wpc) or 6550/KT88 (200 wpc) both into 8 ohms.

Note : These are magic tube watts - they will appear to be like Crowns but with 800 wpc at least, and good sound[]

Details at : http://www.tsakiridis-devices.com/power_amplifiers.html

Edit : Typical - he has downgraded the specs since I last looked - only 140 and 180 now - hardly worth it really.

[NOSValves]

"I'm not suggesting that a 20 watt tube amp is going to blow anyone out of there room with commanding bass response!" ============= I am. Power has little to nothing to do with bass response. md

At higher SPL it does indeed!!

[CaptnBob]

All I know, is a McIntosh 275 at 75 "tube" watts per channel, would go audibly louder (and sound better doing it) than a 200wpc Phase Linear 400. Didn't blow up, either.

[D-MAN]

I own a pair of 60 watt mono tube heads, and they are in no way LOUDER than my Mc300 (which is SS), they also lack the dynamic headroom of the Mc AT ANY VOLUME.

DM