"Tube" watts....

[6foot8]

Meagain you have never heard anything that even comes close to what is sitting in my media room. I have heard both and have owned everything from KG4s to my Jubilees and everything in between. Some people just aren't qualified to render an opinion. Until such time you have owned what I have and can make these comparison then I suggest you stay in the mall.

Facinating.... First off, I wasn't even addressing you. I quoted Craig's comments regarding bass & tubes & your quote got in there. 2nd - you have NO clue what levels, pricepoints, or types of systems I've listened to in my lifetime - but go ahead and assume. Why not 'eh? I'll consider your freekishly condescending remarks seriously. Knowing I'm not qualified to render an opinion on sound quality - I should just sell everything off and get a JVC boombox. I hope they still make them. This will save me vast amounts of money!!! Woooo! See ya at Walmart baby!

ok little girly, how about checking your spelling. I am an ABD in apllied mathematical statistics but I don't read 13 year old very well.

[6foot8]

Has anyone ever wondered (perhaps after spending a while in a thread like this one) why those unfortunate individuals with the technical background and experience of children should be suffered to post what are quite honestly 'dumb questions'?

Physists and philosophers don't argue with three year olds about the nature of ultimate reality - Why are serious music listeners with decades of carefull audio experience arguing with those who are not blessed with the capability to discriminate differences and who make provocative but inane assertions as 'a watt is a watt'?

Maybe you aren't qualified to render an opinion either Paul. The proof is in the pudding..as it were. Can you say with rigorous honesty that you have heard anything like a Jubilee system driven with high quality amps such as BGW and then compared that to Khorns driven with a 35 watt/channel tube amp and a Mac preamp? Probably not, but I can. Funny how PWK used a BGW 100 because it sounded so good and it almost immeasurable IMD figures. That's what is really important. The THD figures are so low for this equipment anyway, I don't see how it could even be heard, even or odd harmonics. Combine that with almost immeasurable IMD and 6dB of headroom and how can you say it doesn't sound good compared to "tube watts?"

I for one am glad my system doesn't sound like a tube system, and I am qualified to render that opinion since I speak from personal experience.

[6foot8]

Has anyone ever wondered (perhaps after spending a while in a thread like this one) why those unfortunate individuals with the technical background and experience of children should be suffered to post what are quite honestly 'dumb questions'?

Physists and philosophers don't argue with three year olds about the nature of ultimate reality - Why are serious music listeners with decades of carefull audio experience arguing with those who are not blessed with the capability to discriminate differences and who make provocative but inane assertions as 'a watt is a watt'?

Let me throw this out as well. When I purchased my Jubilees, Chuck (from Klipsch) asked what I was going to use to drive them. I told him that I had planned on using BGW, his reply was that they were "outstanding" amps and that was an excellent choice. American Cinema also recommended BGW as the best in their class. Until you have heard with your own ears then maybe you should not comment on the subject. I bring considerable personal experience to bear on the use of these amps with both Klipsch, Altec and EV speakers. Many years ago I was a partner in a sound re-enforcement company and we used primarly these same types of BGW amps with our speakers. I have had the opportunity to experiment with a wide variety of combinations over the years in both the sound re-enforcement and home audio environments. Sure we tried other brands but were very impressed with the sound quality and reliability of BGW...apparently some folks at Klipsch share those sentiments including PWK himself.

Consider this...if you high quality Klipsch speakers really do sound harsh or shrill with a very good SS amp (and I am not talking about NAD, Onkyo, etc, etc) then maybe it's your ears that are failing you. I have used these cheaper brands as well and was NEVER satisfied with the sound. I have poured a lot of money at this over the years and if I didn't like the results of the combination I have then I would move on to something that did give me satisfaction. I didn't form this opinion from inexperience or some unsubstantiated personal bias like others I have heard around here. I speak from many years worth of time, money, effort and experience.

So Paul, if you feel like you are casting pearls amongst swine, then just go away. Even us math geeks can get philosophical.<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />

[JJkizak]

Mr. Watt just rotated 15.3 times in his coffin after reading this thread.

JJK

[Deang]

You're not the king of the mountain - you just think you are. Have you tried a tube system with good passive filters on that set up yet? No, probably not.

Those work well in your room because the room is so big, for most of us something that size would be a step backwards.

Enjoy your solid grate pro-setup.

[sfogg]

"I never said I didn't have a clue how to test It"

You most certainly did.

"Peak instantaneous watt abilities is what I'm talking about. To tell you the truth I have no idea how it can be measured."

"I said I do not have the gear to test it and I bet you don't either"

You would be wrong... again.....

"Come on rocket scientest tell us how you test it in your shop????"

I don't test it, like I have said in this thread I don't think it is

very useful to know. The difference you are attributing to tube amps

isn't from dynamic peak power, since you have already learned your amps

likely have none while some SS amps do in fact have peak power contrary

to your earlier claims.

If I wanted to test it it wouldn't be very difficult.

My function generator can be set for specific time 'pulses' of output.

That would be the input for the amp. There are numerous ways I could

then measure it.

The most basic ( that wouldn't neccessarily catch every peak if it was

at high frequency) would be to simply measure it with my meter. BTW...

my meter can make over 1000 readings a second and record them or send

them to a computer for analysis. This would let you see peaks down to

around 1ms in length. Peak power less then 1ms is pretty useless since

it couldn't even support 1 cycle of a wave below about 1kHz.

One could always watch the pulse on a 'scope and have it triggered by

the function generator to capture the pulse. In case you didn't know it

you can measure voltage with an Oscilloscope... thats what all those

funny horizontal lines on the screen are about. So contrary to your own

claims about not having ever seen a meter fast enough to measure peak

power you in fact own one.

A better way with what I have would be to sample the wave and capture

it then analyze it. A buck in resistors and the soundcard in a computer

and the proper software is all that would be needed for this. I'd use

WinAudioMLS for this since that is what I have but there are numerous

other programs out there that would work. This would let you capture

the pulse as well as see any/all harmonic distortion present with the

pulse. The software can also work as a digital storage oscilloscope so

it could be used in that manor as well to measure the pulses. Either of

these methods would allow me to see peak power up to about 48,000 hz.

The same thing could be done with my FFT having it in triggered mode as

opposed to free running and again trigger it from the function

generator. That too would capture the peak and show any THD that was

occuring. The FFT can also be used as a digital storage Oscilloscope so

it could again be measured in that manor.

By varying the duration and amplitude of the pulse in any of the above

methods one could see what the peak power is for xxx amount of time.

And one could also find out if it could sustain lower peak power for

longer amounts of time.

"This discussion was not about MY AMPLIFIER it was about tubes versus

SS and the rumors that Tube watts are more powerfull then the same SS

watts."

At least now you are saying 'rumor' where before you were claiming AB

tube amps where the only amps that had peak power capability.

"So Nelson Pass is a god of some sort. Maybe to you but not to me."

Right, because I said he is a god.... strawman again.

You claimed the Adcom wasn't designed by a "self respecting modern Hi

End audio designer." Nelson Pass fits that description. You can claim

otherwise but then you are just going to look foolish.

" power supplies and output is an absolute fact with Tube amps this to me proves your as ignorant about tube amps "

Of course... because in your magic world the output of a tube amp

doesn't start in the power supply. In your little world you put in 10w

and magically get out 100w. I can't wait for your Cold Fusion upgrades

for your amps. And since you obviously can't read I did not just say

the PS would need to be boosted up. You were the one that made that

claim without considering the rest of the amplifier, not me.

Shawn

[6foot8]

Tell you what Paul, bring your little tube amp over and we'll hook it up to another system I have that is La Scala based...you have La Scalas right? This system is very simple, 100 watt BGW and a preamp with two speakers in an average sized room. I'll even keep it fair, I'll use the smallest BGW amp I have...50 watts per channel (the same exact model PWK used by the way) and I'd be willing to bet it still sounds at least as good in the midrange and seriously outperforms the tube amp in the bass regions.

[6foot8]

You're not the king of the mountain - you just think you are. Have you tried a tube system with good passive filters on that set up yet? No, probably not.

Those work well in your room because the room is so big, for most of us something that size would be a step backwards.

Enjoy your solid grate pro-setup.

Thanks Dean, sounds like you lack personal experience as well. Lots of people with unsubstantiated personal biases around here. You can come over too Dean. If you haven't heard it then why do you feel so strongly as you do?

[6foot8]

You're not the king of the mountain - you just think you are. Have you tried a tube system with good passive filters on that set up yet? No, probably not.

Those work well in your room because the room is so big, for most of us something that size would be a step backwards.

Enjoy your solid grate pro-setup.

You are correct about one thing...I am not king of the mountain. There are things that you do such as build very good crossovers that I can't do. Craig designs and builds very good amplifiers, I can't do that either. These shortcommings of mine do not in any way mean that I am not qualified to evaluate the sonic qualities of the equipment. I do not have to be an electrical engineer to make subjective evaluations about the "quality" of the sound a system reproduces. You, Craig and other "experts" around do not have exclusive rights to make subjective evaluations on the sonic qualities of audio equipment. Certainly the systems you and Craig have for example are not the benchmark for which every one else should judge their systems by. You like your stuff, that's great, but it is by no means any better than what I and others have around here. You may be very good and designing and building crossovers and amps but that does not make you any more of an expert than me or anyone else in judging how it sounds.

This intellectual masturbation has no point, particuliarly when people rely on unsubstantiated personal biases to form their opinions. I have owned systems very comparable to what you have, and was not satisfied with the performance. I attribute that soley to the amp...not my room or certainly not the speakers.

No I have not used a tube amp with passive filters on my system, nor will I. I have been down that road before and was not satisfied...have you been down my road before oh wise one?

[filmboydoug]

Meagain you have never heard anything that even comes close to what is sitting in my media room. I have heard both and have owned everything from KG4s to my Jubilees and everything in between. Some people just aren't qualified to render an opinion. Until such time you have owned what I have and can make these comparison then I suggest you stay in the mall.

Facinating.... First off, I wasn't even addressing you. I quoted Craig's comments regarding bass & tubes & your quote got in there. 2nd - you have NO clue what levels, pricepoints, or types of systems I've listened to in my lifetime - but go ahead and assume. Why not 'eh? I'll consider your freekishly condescending remarks seriously. Knowing I'm not qualified to render an opinion on sound quality - I should just sell everything off and get a JVC boombox. I hope they still make them. This will save me vast amounts of money!!! Woooo! See ya at Walmart baby!

ok little girly, how about checking your spelling. I am an ABD in apllied mathematical statistics but I don't read 13 year old very well.

1. Your system is much better than mine.

2. I live in North Dakota so I won't be coming for a listen.

3. When you joined this forum less than a year ago you quickly decided to take your toys and go home, even going as far as to request your profile and all your posts be deleted. This, for a few posts much less obnoxious, arrogant, and condescending than the post I am quoting here and others.

[3dzapper]

"Consider this...if you high quality Klipsch speakers really do sound harsh or shrill with a very good SS amp (and I am not talking about NAD, Onkyo, etc, etc) then maybe it's your ears that are failing you"

LMAO on that one big guy!!! Score 1 for Texas !!!

Dean has a good point about room size also. Many of us sit almost with our heads in our horns out of necessity.

I can't talk good or bad about BGW amps as I have never had the pleasure of auditioning one.

Rick

[6foot8]

"Consider this...if you high quality Klipsch speakers really do sound harsh or shrill with a very good SS amp (and I am not talking about NAD, Onkyo, etc, etc) then maybe it's your ears that are failing you"

LMAO on that one big guy!!! Score 1 for Texas !!!

Dean has a good point about room size also. Many of us sit almost with our heads in our horns out of necessity.

I can't talk good or bad about BGW amps as I have never had the pleasure of auditioning one.

Rick

Rick I don't get the LMAO..please translate.

[meagain]

ROTFLMAO!!!

[6foot8]

Meagain you have never heard anything that even comes close to what is sitting in my media room. I have heard both and have owned everything from KG4s to my Jubilees and everything in between. Some people just aren't qualified to render an opinion. Until such time you have owned what I have and can make these comparison then I suggest you stay in the mall.

Facinating.... First off, I wasn't even addressing you. I quoted Craig's comments regarding bass & tubes & your quote got in there. 2nd - you have NO clue what levels, pricepoints, or types of systems I've listened to in my lifetime - but go ahead and assume. Why not 'eh? I'll consider your freekishly condescending remarks seriously. Knowing I'm not qualified to render an opinion on sound quality - I should just sell everything off and get a JVC boombox. I hope they still make them. This will save me vast amounts of money!!! Woooo! See ya at Walmart baby!

ok little girly, how about checking your spelling. I am an ABD in apllied mathematical statistics but I don't read 13 year old very well.

1. Your system is much better than mine.

2. I live in North Dakota so I won't be coming for a listen.

3. When you joined this forum less than a year ago you quickly decided to take your toys and go home, even going as far as to request your profile and all your posts be deleted. This, for a few posts much less obnoxious, arrogant, and condescending than the post I am quoting here and others.

Doug,

Yes I have decided to follow the example of so many others in this forum. You are correct, I am much less bashfull these days about speaking my mind. I aopologize for the sharp toungue. However, I am no more arrogant than the likes of others around here who claim to be the final word on what defines high fidelity. I am suggesting that maybe some of these folks do not like having their "authority" on the matter called into question. I do not take what Dean, Craig or anyone else around here says as "Hi Fi gospel." I am simply calling into question what has become conventional wisdom around here. Simply put don't spout off personal biases as if they are truth particuliarly if you don't have the data and experience to back it up.

I live in a world of mathematics and much of what I do needs to be "proved" or demonstrated by indirect analysis to be "true." However, just like in my world, I am sure Craig lives in a world of ambiguity, albeit electrical, as well. Some things are very difficult if not impossible to prove because of wide grey areas, exceptions to the rule or rapidly changing situations (akin to dynamics in his world). This debate would clearly satisfy all of those situations...and yet it has raged on for years.

[6foot8]

ROTFLMAO!!!

Are you talking to me again meagain? What does this lingo mean? If you are going to slam me then please do it in a language that I can understand.

[meagain]

PITA!

[6]

[6foot8]

Meagain you have never heard anything that even comes close to what is sitting in my media room. I have heard both and have owned everything from KG4s to my Jubilees and everything in between. Some people just aren't qualified to render an opinion. Until such time you have owned what I have and can make these comparison then I suggest you stay in the mall.

Facinating.... First off, I wasn't even addressing you. I quoted Craig's comments regarding bass & tubes & your quote got in there. 2nd - you have NO clue what levels, pricepoints, or types of systems I've listened to in my lifetime - but go ahead and assume. Why not 'eh? I'll consider your freekishly condescending remarks seriously. Knowing I'm not qualified to render an opinion on sound quality - I should just sell everything off and get a JVC boombox. I hope they still make them. This will save me vast amounts of money!!! Woooo! See ya at Walmart baby!

ok little girly, how about checking your spelling. I am an ABD in apllied mathematical statistics but I don't read 13 year old very well.

1. Your system is much better than mine.

2. I live in North Dakota so I won't be coming for a listen.

3. When you joined this forum less than a year ago you quickly decided to take your toys and go home, even going as far as to request your profile and all your posts be deleted. This, for a few posts much less obnoxious, arrogant, and condescending than the post I am quoting here and others.

Doug I also wanted to say that I did not mean to sound pretentious or arrogant. I have worked and saved very hard for over a decade to be able to put this system together. It's a life long dream I have worked hard for. I am not rich and did not mean for it to come off that way.

[6foot8]

PITA!

[6]

Meagain...how can you possible revel in your attacks on me? Particulaiarly if you are aware that I have no idea that I am being slammed by you because I don't speak the language...

I probably deserve it though.

[sfogg]

http://www.gaarde.org/acronyms/

[6foot8]

Thanks sfogg...now I get it.