"Tube" watts....

[Mike Lindsey]

By the way I live in the Orlando area so if you plan on heading to the beach or Disney let me know and I'll even cook some good filets for us...or maybe some crow []

Where are you? I'm in Oviedo and sure would like to come by and hear your rig!

Mike

Hey Mike, I live in Clermont.

Shoot me a PM or email me at luvmy92@earthlink.net, and we'll arrange to meet one weekend. I'll bring my VRD's and BBX.

For future reference:

LMAO = Laughing My *** Off

ROTFLMAO = Rolling On The Floor Laughing My *** Off

PITA = Pain In The ***

LOL = Laughing Out Loud

BTW = By The Way

WRT = With Regard To

IMO = In My Opinion

IMHO = In My Humble Opinion or In My Honest Opinion

Mike

[Erik Mandaville]

It's the occidental term for a-flat bread common to many countries in the Middle East.

Erik

[Piranha]

This is starting to get interesting

[6foot8]

By the way I live in the Orlando area so if you plan on heading to the beach or Disney let me know and I'll even cook some good filets for us...or maybe some crow []

Where are you? I'm in Oviedo and sure would like to come by and hear your rig!

Mike

Hey Mike, I live in Clermont.

Shoot me a PM or email me at luvmy92@earthlink.net, and we'll arrange to meet one weekend. I'll bring my VRD's and BBX.

For future reference:

LMAO = Laughing My *** Off

ROTFLMAO = Rolling On The Floor Laughing My *** Off

PITA = Pain In The ***

LOL = Laughing Out Loud

BTW = By The Way

WRT = With Regard To

IMO = In My Opinion

IMHO = In My Humble Opinion or In My Honest Opinion

Mike

Mike I sent you an email.

[Erik Mandaville]

ROTFLMAOWHILEEATINGAPITASANDWICH

[steamer]

This is starting to get interesting

and were only 10 pages in

edit 11

[Jeff Matthews]

Only 11 pages.... and the funny thing is everyone has been in agreement for a long time now. I think they're fighting just to fight. []

[steamer]

Only 11 pages.... and the funny thing is everyone has been in agreement for a long time now. I think they're fighting just to fight. []

you sure know how to stir the pot LOL

[3dzapper]

Jeff, We are practicing our best lawyer impersonations.[6]

[Jeff Matthews]

Jeff, We are practicing our best lawyer impersonations.[6]

Rick, don't get me started....

...... I've been working on my audiophile impersonation real hard. []

[NOSValves]

"I never said I didn't have a clue how to test It"

You most certainly did.

"Peak instantaneous watt abilities is what I'm talking about. To tell you the truth

"I said I do not have the gear to test it and I bet you don't either"

You would be wrong... again.....

"Come on rocket scientest tell us how you test it in your shop????"

I don't test it, like I have said in this thread I don't think it is very useful to know. The difference you are attributing to tube amps isn't from dynamic peak power, since you have already learned your amps likely have none while some SS amps do in fact have peak power contrary to your earlier claims.

If I wanted to test it it wouldn't be very difficult.

My function generator can be set for specific time 'pulses' of output. That would be the input for the amp. There are numerous ways I could then measure it.

The most basic ( that wouldn't neccessarily catch every peak if it was at high frequency) would be to simply measure it with my meter. BTW... my meter can make over 1000 readings a second and record them or send them to a computer for analysis. This would let you see peaks down to around 1ms in length. Peak power less then 1ms is pretty useless since it couldn't even support 1 cycle of a wave below about 1kHz.

One could always watch the pulse on a 'scope and have it triggered by the function generator to capture the pulse. In case you didn't know it you can measure voltage with an Oscilloscope... thats what all those funny horizontal lines on the screen are about. So contrary to your own claims about not having ever seen a meter fast enough to measure peak power you in fact own one.

A better way with what I have would be to sample the wave and capture it then analyze it. A buck in resistors and the soundcard in a computer and the proper software is all that would be needed for this. I'd use WinAudioMLS for this since that is what I have but there are numerous other programs out there that would work. This would let you capture the pulse as well as see any/all harmonic distortion present with the pulse. The software can also work as a digital storage oscilloscope so it could be used in that manor as well to measure the pulses. Either of these methods would allow me to see peak power up to about 48,000 hz.

The same thing could be done with my FFT having it in triggered mode as opposed to free running and again trigger it from the function generator. That too would capture the peak and show any THD that was occuring. The FFT can also be used as a digital storage Oscilloscope so it could again be measured in that manor.

By varying the duration and amplitude of the pulse in any of the above methods one could see what the peak power is for xxx amount of time. And one could also find out if it could sustain lower peak power for longer amounts of time.

"This discussion was not about MY AMPLIFIER it was about tubes versus SS and the rumors that Tube watts are more powerfull then the same SS watts."

At least now you are saying 'rumor' where before you were claiming AB tube amps where the only amps that had peak power capability.

"So Nelson Pass is a god of some sort. Maybe to you but not to me."

Right, because I said he is a god.... strawman again.

You claimed the Adcom wasn't designed by a "self respecting modern Hi End audio designer." Nelson Pass fits that description. You can claim otherwise but then you are just going to look foolish.

" power supplies and output is an absolute fact with Tube amps this to me proves your as ignorant about tube amps "

Of course... because in your magic world the output of a tube amp doesn't start in the power supply. In your little world you put in 10w and magically get out 100w. I can't wait for your Cold Fusion upgrades for your amps. And since you obviously can't read I did not just say the PS would need to be boosted up. You were the one that made that claim without considering the rest of the amplifier, not me.

Shawn

It's official your a geek. I give up you spend way to much time twisting what I say then actually answering questions in a reasonable manor. I find it interesting that you know what my Scope and function generator can do even though you most likely don't know what brand or type they are.

Once again I never said 3/4's of what your stating. You surely love to read between the lines, take things out of context and make up what you see fit. When did I say a 10 watt tube amps makes 100 watts??? I suggested changes to the SS amp in question in a hypothetical manor a simple answer would of been nice but the outcome of the change would of landed in my favor so you would rather come back from another angle.

I think we should look into what type of amp old Nelson makes today and see how its power supply reacts to load. How about that. I have no idea what it maybe so don't turn what I'm saying into something I didn't say again please!!! You have indeed proved that some SS amps can have dynamic headroom and I have no problem admitting I was wrong. But now your basically stating they all do! I think its more like a few do.

Oh and yes I do have a problem reading your twisted techno babble nothing new there.

Craig

[NOSValves]

Tell you what Paul, bring your little tube amp over and we'll hook it up to another system I have that is La Scala based...you have La Scalas right? This system is very simple, 100 watt BGW and a preamp with two speakers in an average sized room. I'll even keep it fair, I'll use the smallest BGW amp I have...50 watts per channel (the same exact model PWK used by the way) and I'd be willing to bet it still sounds at least as good in the midrange and seriously outperforms the tube amp in the bass regions.

I have a much better idea. Lets get a pair of VRD's over to your place with a Juicy music pre and compare the outcome against your 50 watt BGW surely someone in your area can do this. I'm not stating that one will be better then the other I have no experience with the system you have. I'm totally curious as to what the outcome would be. It would also be nice is more then just one or two members were present for the shoot out.

What tube gear exactly have you run and if vintage what electrical condition was it in??

Craig

[Jeff Matthews]

Tell you what Paul, bring your little tube amp over and we'll hook it up to another system I have that is La Scala based...you have La Scalas right? This system is very simple, 100 watt BGW and a preamp with two speakers in an average sized room. I'll even keep it fair, I'll use the smallest BGW amp I have...50 watts per channel (the same exact model PWK used by the way) and I'd be willing to bet it still sounds at least as good in the midrange and seriously outperforms the tube amp in the bass regions.

I have a much better idea. Lets get a pair of VRD's over to your place with a Juicy music pre and compare the outcome against your 50 watt BGW surely someone in your area can do this. I'm not stating that one will be better then the other I have no experience with the system you have. I'm totally curious as to what the outcome would be. It would also be nice is more then just one or two members were present for the shoot out.

What tube gear exactly have you run and if vintage what electrical condition was it in??

Craig

As I read it, Mike Lindsay and he already have this in the works. It'll be interesting to see what they "negotiate."

[6foot8]

Tell you what Paul, bring your little tube amp over and we'll hook it up to another system I have that is La Scala based...you have La Scalas right? This system is very simple, 100 watt BGW and a preamp with two speakers in an average sized room. I'll even keep it fair, I'll use the smallest BGW amp I have...50 watts per channel (the same exact model PWK used by the way) and I'd be willing to bet it still sounds at least as good in the midrange and seriously outperforms the tube amp in the bass regions.

I have a much better idea. Lets get a pair of VRD's over to your place with a Juicy music pre and compare the outcome against your 50 watt BGW surely someone in your area can do this. I'm not stating that one will be better then the other I have no experience with the system you have. I'm totally curious as to what the outcome would be. It would also be nice is more then just one or two members were present for the shoot out.

What tube gear exactly have you run and if vintage what electrical condition was it in??

Craig

As I read it, Mike Lindsay and he already have this in the works. It'll be interesting to see what they "negotiate."

Mike and I have plans to get together the first weekend in April. We are going to hook his equipment up to my bone stock La Scalas and make that comparison. The Jubilees use an active crossover with 3 amps and it's all racked. That is probably too much to tear down, besides the only driver we could really put the tube amp on to make any comparisons would be the midrange...everything else would still employ SS amps. So we thought making a full range comparisons on a stock set of Las Scalas would be the best way to go.

It's not all about this Tube vs. SS debate anyway, I think he would just like to hear the Jubilees first hand. Even if he rejects the BGW as a good sounding amp we are going to have some fun and no hard feelings.

[sfogg]

"you spend way to much time twisting what I say then actually answering questions in a reasonable manor. "

You are projecting again.

" I find it interesting that you know what my Scope and function generator can do even though you most likely don't know what brand or type they are."

Again projecting... where did I say a thing about your function generator?

You were the one making the claims I didn't have the proper equipment. Opps... look at that... I do....

As far as your 'scope in the past you have posted square wave measurements from your scope at 20kHz. If your scope is fast enough to show that it is plenty fast enough for dynamic power tests.... just one more thing you didn't know.

So come on Craig... how fast is your scope.... 5,000,000hz, 10,000,000hz, 20,000,000hz or even faster?

Any would be *far* more the fast enough to measure dynamic power at a piddling 20,000hz or likely far lower.

" but the outcome of the change would of landed in my favor so you would rather come back from another angle. "

BS. You are the one being a hyprocrite and saying a tube amp that has dynamic peak power that it can't sustain is a good thing but if a SS amp *does the exact same thing* it means it is an underdesigned 'bean counter' amp. I simply pointed out that if you took the same POV as you did for a SS amp one could then make the same claim that the tube amp with dynamic power is an underdesigned 'bean counter' amp too. Don't be pissed at me if you get called on your double standard.

"But now your basically stating they all do! "

BS. I said some SS amp have it and that it is not something esoteric for SS. That doesn't mean they all have it and I said as much in a post to Mark earlier. Keep trying to put words in my mouth.

There is a lot of twisting of words around for sure... but you are projecting again.

As far as techno-babble... maybe if one day you stop trying to hide your ignorance behind arrogance and sat down and tried to learn something it would no longer be techno-babble to you.

But... who are we kidding... we both know that is never going to happen.

Shawn

[NOSValves]

"you spend way to much time twisting what I say then actually answering questions in a reasonable manor. " You are projecting again. " I find it interesting that you know what my Scope and function generator can do even though you most likely don't know what brand or type they are." Again projecting... where did I say a thing about your function generator? You were the one making the claims I didn't have the proper equipment. Opps... look at that... I do.... As far as your 'scope in the past you have posted square wave measurements from your scope at 20kHz. If your scope is fast enough to show that it is plenty fast enough for dynamic power tests.... just one more thing you didn't know. So come on Craig... how fast is your scope.... 5,000,000hz, 10,000,000hz, 20,000,000hz or even faster? Any would be *far* more the fast enough to measure dynamic power at a piddling 20,000hz or likely far lower. " but the outcome of the change would of landed in my favor so you would rather come back from another angle. " BS. You are the one being a hyprocrite and saying a tube amp that has dynamic peak power that it can't sustain is a good thing but if a SS amp *does the exact same thing* it means it is an underdesigned 'bean counter' amp. I simply pointed out that if you took the same POV as you did for a SS amp one could then make the same claim that the tube amp with dynamic power is an underdesigned 'bean counter' amp too. Don't be pissed at me if you get called on your double standard. "But now your basically stating they all do! " BS. I said some SS amp have it and that it is not something esoteric for SS. That doesn't mean they all have it and I said as much in a post to Mark earlier. Keep trying to put words in my mouth. There is a lot of twisting of words around for sure... but you are projecting again. As far as techno-babble... maybe if one day you stop trying to hide your ignorance behind arrogance and sat down and tried to learn something it would no longer be techno-babble to you. But... who are we kidding... we both know that is never going to happen. Shawn

I give up your once again not worth the trouble. Climb back in the geekdome.

[NOSValves]

Tell you what Paul, bring your little tube amp over and we'll hook it up to another system I have that is La Scala based...you have La Scalas right? This system is very simple, 100 watt BGW and a preamp with two speakers in an average sized room. I'll even keep it fair, I'll use the smallest BGW amp I have...50 watts per channel (the same exact model PWK used by the way) and I'd be willing to bet it still sounds at least as good in the midrange and seriously outperforms the tube amp in the bass regions.

I have a much better idea. Lets get a pair of VRD's over to your place with a Juicy music pre and compare the outcome against your 50 watt BGW surely someone in your area can do this. I'm not stating that one will be better then the other I have no experience with the system you have. I'm totally curious as to what the outcome would be. It would also be nice is more then just one or two members were present for the shoot out.

What tube gear exactly have you run and if vintage what electrical condition was it in??

Craig

As I read it, Mike Lindsay and he already have this in the works. It'll be interesting to see what they "negotiate."

Mike and I have plans to get together the first weekend in April. We are going to hook his equipment up to my bone stock La Scalas and make that comparison. The Jubilees use an active crossover with 3 amps and it's all racked. That is probably too much to tear down, besides the only driver we could really put the tube amp on to make any comparisons would be the midrange...everything else would still employ SS amps. So we thought making a full range comparisons on a stock set of Las Scalas would be the best way to go.

It's not all about this Tube vs. SS debate anyway, I think he would just like to hear the Jubilees first hand. Even if he rejects the BGW as a good sounding amp we are going to have some fun and no hard feelings.

Very cool and I could careless if the results are even reported back to the forum one way or the other. I would however like to hear what you think in private. What year are your Lascalas and when you say stock do you mean 100% stock. What crossovers are in them? If you want we can take these details to private email if you like craigostby@comcast.net

I'm still wondering what Tube gear you have tried by the way.

Craig

[Jeff Matthews]

Tell you what Paul, bring your little tube amp over and we'll hook it up to another system I have that is La Scala based...you have La Scalas right? This system is very simple, 100 watt BGW and a preamp with two speakers in an average sized room. I'll even keep it fair, I'll use the smallest BGW amp I have...50 watts per channel (the same exact model PWK used by the way) and I'd be willing to bet it still sounds at least as good in the midrange and seriously outperforms the tube amp in the bass regions.

I have a much better idea. Lets get a pair of VRD's over to your place with a Juicy music pre and compare the outcome against your 50 watt BGW surely someone in your area can do this. I'm not stating that one will be better then the other I have no experience with the system you have. I'm totally curious as to what the outcome would be. It would also be nice is more then just one or two members were present for the shoot out.

What tube gear exactly have you run and if vintage what electrical condition was it in??

Craig

As I read it, Mike Lindsay and he already have this in the works. It'll be interesting to see what they "negotiate."

Mike and I have plans to get together the first weekend in April. We are going to hook his equipment up to my bone stock La Scalas and make that comparison. The Jubilees use an active crossover with 3 amps and it's all racked. That is probably too much to tear down, besides the only driver we could really put the tube amp on to make any comparisons would be the midrange...everything else would still employ SS amps. So we thought making a full range comparisons on a stock set of Las Scalas would be the best way to go.

It's not all about this Tube vs. SS debate anyway, I think he would just like to hear the Jubilees first hand. Even if he rejects the BGW as a good sounding amp we are going to have some fun and no hard feelings.

The negotiation begins.

[6foot8]

Tell you what Paul, bring your little tube amp over and we'll hook it up to another system I have that is La Scala based...you have La Scalas right? This system is very simple, 100 watt BGW and a preamp with two speakers in an average sized room. I'll even keep it fair, I'll use the smallest BGW amp I have...50 watts per channel (the same exact model PWK used by the way) and I'd be willing to bet it still sounds at least as good in the midrange and seriously outperforms the tube amp in the bass regions.

I have a much better idea. Lets get a pair of VRD's over to your place with a Juicy music pre and compare the outcome against your 50 watt BGW surely someone in your area can do this. I'm not stating that one will be better then the other I have no experience with the system you have. I'm totally curious as to what the outcome would be. It would also be nice is more then just one or two members were present for the shoot out.

What tube gear exactly have you run and if vintage what electrical condition was it in??

Craig

As I read it, Mike Lindsay and he already have this in the works. It'll be interesting to see what they "negotiate."

Mike and I have plans to get together the first weekend in April. We are going to hook his equipment up to my bone stock La Scalas and make that comparison. The Jubilees use an active crossover with 3 amps and it's all racked. That is probably too much to tear down, besides the only driver we could really put the tube amp on to make any comparisons would be the midrange...everything else would still employ SS amps. So we thought making a full range comparisons on a stock set of Las Scalas would be the best way to go.

It's not all about this Tube vs. SS debate anyway, I think he would just like to hear the Jubilees first hand. Even if he rejects the BGW as a good sounding amp we are going to have some fun and no hard feelings.

Very cool and I could careless if the results are even reported back to the forum one way or the other. I would however like to hear what you think in private. What year are your Lascalas and when you say stock do you mean 100% stock. What crossovers are in them? If you want we can take these details to private email if you like craigostby@comcast.net

I'm still wondering what Tube gear you have tried by the way.

Craig

Craig...sorry didn't mean to dodge your question. The La Scalas are 1989 vintage if I remember correctly and unfortunately use the original AL networks...but they are my wife's now and she does like them. They are destined to be tri-amped soon. I have one more BGW in the shop getting new output caps and then I'll take out the passive crossover altogether.

The history of how I got here is a long one, but I'll keep it short. It really got started in 1992 when I was fresh out of grad school. I blew all my savings on a brand new pair of 1992 Khorns, a brand new Dynaco ST-70 and mint vintage McIntosh C-26 and about $500 bucks worth of speaker wire. I already had all the other stuff (turntable, tape deck, etc, etc).

I had auditioned a vintage Mac tube amp that the dealer had out of his collection he wanted to sell me but I could not afford it. I did prefer the sound to the Dynaco however. Anyways time marched on, I collected more stuff and grew increasingly less satisfied with the ST-70. The trouble really started when I sold the Khorns to make some cash for my first house. I kept the some of the other stuff but acquired the La Scalas many years ago to replace my Khorns...now I made a serious mistake. At that time I was not familiar with this Klipsch speaker. The tube amp just did not get it for me at all on the La Scalas so I started experimenting with other amps. I tried the Onkyo M504 and it was very harsh, then a NAD 218THX better than the Onkyo but still lacked bottom end. I tried a couple of Carvers, a beast of a vintage Marantz (the one with the meters but I can't recall the model as I retuned it when an output capacitor smoked on me), a QSC 2450 which was not too bad...the tube amp was out of the picture so I purchased a very nice BGW 750B, had it updated and WOW it made the bottom on those La Scalas really sound good. I had sold most of my equipment back in the mid 1980's to finance college and had not owned another BGW until a few years ago when I started making changes to my system.

Back when I was doing sound re-enforcement I used BGW, SAE and Phase Linear in a very large system. Maybe it's nostalgia or personal preference but nothing I tried sounded as good to me.

[NOSValves]

Tell you what Paul, bring your little tube amp over and we'll hook it up to another system I have that is La Scala based...you have La Scalas right? This system is very simple, 100 watt BGW and a preamp with two speakers in an average sized room. I'll even keep it fair, I'll use the smallest BGW amp I have...50 watts per channel (the same exact model PWK used by the way) and I'd be willing to bet it still sounds at least as good in the midrange and seriously outperforms the tube amp in the bass regions.

I have a much better idea. Lets get a pair of VRD's over to your place with a Juicy music pre and compare the outcome against your 50 watt BGW surely someone in your area can do this. I'm not stating that one will be better then the other I have no experience with the system you have. I'm totally curious as to what the outcome would be. It would also be nice is more then just one or two members were present for the shoot out.

What tube gear exactly have you run and if vintage what electrical condition was it in??

Craig

As I read it, Mike Lindsay and he already have this in the works. It'll be interesting to see what they "negotiate."

Mike and I have plans to get together the first weekend in April. We are going to hook his equipment up to my bone stock La Scalas and make that comparison. The Jubilees use an active crossover with 3 amps and it's all racked. That is probably too much to tear down, besides the only driver we could really put the tube amp on to make any comparisons would be the midrange...everything else would still employ SS amps. So we thought making a full range comparisons on a stock set of Las Scalas would be the best way to go.

It's not all about this Tube vs. SS debate anyway, I think he would just like to hear the Jubilees first hand. Even if he rejects the BGW as a good sounding amp we are going to have some fun and no hard feelings.

Very cool and I could careless if the results are even reported back to the forum one way or the other. I would however like to hear what you think in private. What year are your Lascalas and when you say stock do you mean 100% stock. What crossovers are in them? If you want we can take these details to private email if you like craigostby@comcast.net

I'm still wondering what Tube gear you have tried by the way.

Craig

Craig...sorry didn't mean to dodge your question. The La Scalas are 1989 vintage if I remember correctly and unfortunately use the original AL networks...but they are my wife's now and she does like them. They are destined to be tri-amped soon. I have one more BGW in the shop getting new output caps and then I'll take out the passive crossover altogether.

The history of how I got here is a long one, but I'll keep it short. It really got started in 1992 when I was fresh out of grad school. I blew all my savings on a brand new pair of 1992 Khorns, a brand new Dynaco ST-70 and mint vintage McIntosh C-26 and about $500 bucks worth of speaker wire. I already had all the other stuff (turntable, tape deck, etc, etc).

I had auditioned a vintage Mac tube amp that the dealer had out of his collection he wanted to sell me but I could not afford it. I did prefer the sound to the Dynaco however. Anyways time marched on, I collected more stuff and grew increasingly less satisfied with the ST-70. The trouble really started when I sold the Khorns to make some cash for my first house. I kept the some of the other stuff but acquired the La Scalas many years ago to replace my Khorns...now I made a serious mistake. At that time I was not familiar with this Klipsch speaker. The tube amp just did not get it for me at all on the La Scalas so I started experimenting with other amps. I tried the Onkyo M504 and it was very harsh, then a NAD 218THX better than the Onkyo but still lacked bottom end. I tried a couple of Carvers, a beast of a vintage Marantz (the one with the meters but I can't recall the model as I retuned it when an output capacitor smoked on me), a QSC 2450 which was not too bad...the tube amp was out of the picture so I purchased a very nice BGW 750B, had it updated and WOW it made the bottom on those La Scalas really sound good. I had sold most of my equipment back in the mid 1980's to finance college and had not owned another BGW until a few years ago when I started making changes to my system.

Back when I was doing sound re-enforcement I used BGW, SAE and Phase Linear in a very large system. Maybe it's nostalgia or personal preference but nothing I tried sounded as good to me.

Your in for a rude awakening in April. Not to say your going to prefer tubes to SS but I'm about 200% sure you will change your opinions about tubes/bass real fast.

Craig